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Author Topic:   DarkStar's Collection of Quotations - Number 1
CK
Member (Idle past 4153 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 106 of 173 (135452)
08-19-2004 10:16 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by DarkStar
08-19-2004 10:13 PM


Re: Last warning!
So you redraw your claim of fraud ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by DarkStar, posted 08-19-2004 10:13 PM DarkStar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by DarkStar, posted 08-19-2004 10:24 PM CK has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1493 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 107 of 173 (135454)
08-19-2004 10:18 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by DarkStar
08-19-2004 10:13 PM


I have attempted to get this thread back on track
Then by all means, substantiate your claim about Quote 1 or withdraw it. We're sort of stuck on that point, crucial as it is to your argument, until you address it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by DarkStar, posted 08-19-2004 10:13 PM DarkStar has not replied

DarkStar
Inactive Member


Message 108 of 173 (135455)
08-19-2004 10:19 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by crashfrog
08-19-2004 10:07 PM


You may consider Darwins topic in the letter an unanswered question, seeing as how neither I nor anyone else has been able to produce the letter in question. Perhaps he was speaking of his theory, perhaps he was not. That question has not yet been answered to anyone's satisfaction, hence the move to quote #2. Should the letter be produced some time in the future, we can then readdress the issue.

The theory of evolution is a viable theory, absent the myth of macroevolution.
Once the myth of macroevolution is included, the viability of the theory of evolution vanishes as it slowly evolves into just another example of an implausible story,
nestled amongst the numerous fairytale's of our youth.-----DarkStar

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by crashfrog, posted 08-19-2004 10:07 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by jar, posted 08-19-2004 10:34 PM DarkStar has not replied
 Message 114 by crashfrog, posted 08-19-2004 10:56 PM DarkStar has not replied

DarkStar
Inactive Member


Message 109 of 173 (135456)
08-19-2004 10:24 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by CK
08-19-2004 10:16 PM


Re: Last warning!
For your satisfaction, the term "fraud" is withdrawn! Let's call it an unfortunate misunderstanding in a zealous quest to confirm the theory of evolution.

The theory of evolution is a viable theory, absent the myth of macroevolution.
Once the myth of macroevolution is included, the viability of the theory of evolution vanishes as it slowly evolves into just another example of an implausible story,
nestled amongst the numerous fairytale's of our youth.-----DarkStar

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by CK, posted 08-19-2004 10:16 PM CK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by CK, posted 08-19-2004 10:25 PM DarkStar has replied
 Message 116 by pink sasquatch, posted 08-20-2004 1:41 AM DarkStar has not replied

CK
Member (Idle past 4153 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 110 of 173 (135457)
08-19-2004 10:25 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by DarkStar
08-19-2004 10:24 PM


Re: Last warning!
that seems a bit of a dodge - let's try this:
I totally accept that there was no fraud and I was wrong about NMan
Oh shall we move onto your claims about lucy or are they redraw as well?
or do you want to deal with piltdown man first?
This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 08-19-2004 09:26 PM
This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 08-19-2004 09:27 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by DarkStar, posted 08-19-2004 10:24 PM DarkStar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by DarkStar, posted 08-19-2004 10:31 PM CK has replied

DarkStar
Inactive Member


Message 111 of 173 (135460)
08-19-2004 10:31 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by CK
08-19-2004 10:25 PM


Here is an idea!
How about you doing your part to get this thread back on track, and perhaps opening a new topic about evolution frauds, real or imagined. Thanks in advance.

The theory of evolution is a viable theory, absent the myth of macroevolution.
Once the myth of macroevolution is included, the viability of the theory of evolution vanishes as it slowly evolves into just another example of an implausible story,
nestled amongst the numerous fairytale's of our youth.-----DarkStar

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by CK, posted 08-19-2004 10:25 PM CK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by CK, posted 08-19-2004 10:32 PM DarkStar has not replied

CK
Member (Idle past 4153 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 112 of 173 (135461)
08-19-2004 10:32 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by DarkStar
08-19-2004 10:31 PM


Re: Here is an idea!
well it's real simple you just have to say that you were wrong about those things and we can carry on - you've already managed a grudging one about N-Man, you just need to do the rest and we can move on.
It's just requires one line from one:
I WAS WRONG.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by DarkStar, posted 08-19-2004 10:31 PM DarkStar has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 420 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 113 of 173 (135462)
08-19-2004 10:34 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by DarkStar
08-19-2004 10:19 PM


How is it unanswered. You were asked to produce the source for your quote and the context of the letter and failed to do so.
I could say DarkStar said he supports macro-evolution. But unless I could show where you did so, I would have to retract and drop the allegation.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by DarkStar, posted 08-19-2004 10:19 PM DarkStar has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1493 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 114 of 173 (135465)
08-19-2004 10:56 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by DarkStar
08-19-2004 10:19 PM


Perhaps he was speaking of his theory, perhaps he was not.
It should be noted, though, that nobody but you and creationists think that he was referring to evolution. The Darwin Correspondence Online Database summarizes the letter as follows:
quote:
Thanks for AG's remarks on disjoined species. CD's notions are based on belief that disjoined species have suffered much extinction, which is the common cause of small genera and disjoined ranges.
Discusses out-crossing in plants.
Has failed to meet with a detailed account of regular and normal impregnation in the bud. Podostemon, Subularia, and underwater Leguminosae are the strongest cases against him.
Moreover you've still failed to address why Darwin would allude to the theory of evolution before he had presented it to Asa Gray.
To paint this as any sort of "unanswered question" or "maybe so, maybe not" situation is disingenuity personified.
At any rate, I was able to find the letter we've been talking about, sort of:
quote:
Letter 586. TO ASA GRAY.
June 18th (1857).
It has been extremely kind of you telling me about the trees: now with your facts, and those from Britain, N. Zealand, and Tasmania I shall have fair materials for judging. I am writing this away from home, but I think your fraction of 95/132 is as large as in other cases, and is at least a striking coincidence.
I thank you much for your remarks about my crossing notions, to which, I may add, I was led by exactly the same idea as yours, viz., that crossing must be one means of eliminating variation, and then I wished to make out how far in animals and vegetables this was possible. Papilionaceous flowers are almost dead floorers to me, and I cannot experimentise, as castration alone often produces sterility. I am surprised at what you say about Compositae and Gramineae. From what I have seen of latter they seemed to me (and I have watched wheat, owing to what L. de Longchamps has said on their fertilisation in bud) favourable for crossing; and from Cassini's observations and Klreuter's on the adhesive pollen, and C.C. Sprengel's, I had concluded that the Compositae were eminently likely (I am aware of the pistil brushing out pollen) to be crossed.1 If in some months' time you can find time to tell me whether you have made any observations on the early fertilisation of plants in these two orders, I should be very glad to hear, as it would save me from great blunder. In several published remarks on this subject in various genera it has seemed to me that the early fertilisation has been inferred from the early shedding of the pollen, which I think is clearly a false inference. Another cause, I should think, of the belief of fertilisation in the bud, is the not-rare, abnormal, early maturity of the pistil as described by Grtner. I have hitherto failed in meeting with detailed accounts of regular and normal impregnation in the bud. Podostemon and Subularia under water (and Leguminosae) seem and are strongest cases against me, as far as I as yet know. I am so sorry that you are so overwhelmed with work; it makes your very great kindness to me the more striking.
It is really pretty to see how effectual insects are. A short time ago I found a female holly sixty measured yards from any other holly, and I cut off some twigs and took by chance twenty stigmas, cut off their tops, and put them under the microscope: there was pollen on every one, and in profusion on most! weather cloudy and stormy and unfavourable, wind in wrong direction to have brought any.
from No webpage found at provided URL: http://pages.britishlibrary.net/charles.darwin/texts/more_letters/mletters2_10.html
That was the letter DarkQuote has been referencing, via Talkorigins. According to the introduction to the print:
With a view to saving space, we have confined ourselves to elucidating the letters by full annotations, and have for the same reason-though with some regret-omitted in most cases the beginnings and endings of the letters.
Did Darwin even say what DS says he said? Who knows? Is this letter printed in its entirity? It doesn't say. (Maybe it's not even the right letter. I don't know.)
Nonetheless it's apparent from this, the body of the letter, that Darwin is not referring to the theory he wouldn't have published for some months at the time he wrote the letter.
Trying to even suggest that Darwin is speaking about evolution is simply the height of mendacity.
This message has been edited by crashfrog, 08-19-2004 09:57 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by DarkStar, posted 08-19-2004 10:19 PM DarkStar has not replied

DarkStar
Inactive Member


Message 115 of 173 (135517)
08-20-2004 1:02 AM


While your waiting.....
A short list of the numerous scientists who doubt Darwinism.
http://www.discoveringdesign.net/framelink.php?mylink=/ar...
and.....
The "Society for the Advancement of Real Science" Denounces Intelligent Design.
http://www.designinference.com/.../2004.02.SARS_Slams_ID.htm

The theory of evolution is a viable theory, absent the myth of macroevolution.
Once the myth of macroevolution is included, the viability of the theory of evolution vanishes as it slowly evolves into just another example of an implausible story,
nestled amongst the numerous fairytale's of our youth.-----DarkStar

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by NosyNed, posted 08-20-2004 2:23 AM DarkStar has not replied
 Message 118 by CK, posted 08-20-2004 3:21 AM DarkStar has not replied
 Message 121 by crashfrog, posted 08-20-2004 11:36 AM DarkStar has not replied
 Message 125 by jar, posted 08-20-2004 8:34 PM DarkStar has not replied
 Message 127 by Minnemooseus, posted 08-20-2004 9:21 PM DarkStar has replied

pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6049 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 116 of 173 (135526)
08-20-2004 1:41 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by DarkStar
08-19-2004 10:24 PM


Re: Last warning!
Let's call it an unfortunate misunderstanding in a zealous quest to confirm the theory of evolution.
That statement seems to characterizes your entire quote-mining expedition, for not only are the quotes out-of-context, you yourself are not even aware of the context of your quotes. You also don't seem to realize that even if you were able to produce thousands of quotes, in context, from reputable speakers, that would have no ramification for the theory of evolution.
Theories are falsified by evidence, not by quotations. Can you not come up with any evidence to refute the theory of evolution?
As far as moving on to the Cohen quote - as I showed before, Cohen does not believe that any change can occur in DNA without "a meaningful intervention from an outside source of intelligence".
This means he does not believe DNA mutation ever occurs, and thus reveals himself as a scientific ignoramus.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by DarkStar, posted 08-19-2004 10:24 PM DarkStar has not replied

NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9003
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 117 of 173 (135535)
08-20-2004 2:23 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by DarkStar
08-20-2004 1:02 AM


Re: While your waiting.....
The "Society for the Advancement of Real Science" Denounces Intelligent Design.
and you know what this 'society' is do you? Please fill in some details of your understanding rather than just posting links.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by DarkStar, posted 08-20-2004 1:02 AM DarkStar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by CK, posted 08-20-2004 6:04 AM NosyNed has not replied

CK
Member (Idle past 4153 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 118 of 173 (135545)
08-20-2004 3:21 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by DarkStar
08-20-2004 1:02 AM


Re: While your waiting.....
Wow that's a big list of names (but not even a tenth of the size of the steve project) - but as people have pointed out - it's evidence that we are concerned with - not names.
So how about you give us three or four peer-reviewed papers presented by scientists that contest TOE. A list that big - 3 or 4 should be easy!
right?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by DarkStar, posted 08-20-2004 1:02 AM DarkStar has not replied

CK
Member (Idle past 4153 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 119 of 173 (135583)
08-20-2004 6:04 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by NosyNed
08-20-2004 2:23 AM


Re: While your waiting.....
ha ha ha - Yes Darkstar please tells us all you know about SARS.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by NosyNed, posted 08-20-2004 2:23 AM NosyNed has not replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22492
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 120 of 173 (135618)
08-20-2004 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by DarkStar
08-19-2004 9:34 PM


Re: One good fraud deserves another.....
Hi DarkStar!
Leaving aside the inaccuracies for the moment, how can you equate a list of things science rejects, such as Nebraska Man and Piltdown Man, with a list of things that Creationists embrace, such as talking snakes, people turning into pillars of salt, and the sun stopping in the sky?
Reviewing your list now...
You remember, stories like the piltdown man, (that was a good one)...
Someone definitely committed fraud in this case. As has already been explained in detail, some suspected fraud from the beginning, and scientists proved it a fraud in the 1950's when the fossils finally became available for detailed study after the death of Woodward.
...and the nebraska man, (almost busted a gut laughing about that one).
With all the information you've been provided, you still think this is an example of scientific fraud?
And lets not forget about Lucy...
Lucy is a genuine Australopithicus afarensis skeleton.
Then there is my personal favorite, the infamous peppered moths. That one just goes to show that the macroevolution myth believers have a wonderful imagination. Too bad they have such a disdain for true science.
The peppered moth is not an example of macroevolution. It's an example of the influence of environmental changes on allele frequency within a species.
Of course we can never forget the one about the skull that was found in Spain in 1984. It was touted as the oldest known example of man found so far in Eurasia. Unfortunately for the macroevolution myth believing spinmasters, this skull was actually shown to be that of a young donkey. Shades of Pinnochio!
You're referring to Orce Man, identified by a single skull fragment. A couple Internet articles give a year of discovery of 1982, so you might have the year wrong. Anyway, even after all these years there is still no scientific consensus about Orce Man. As one article I read states, normally this much attention wouldn't be given an ambiguous fragment, but in this case it might be the earliest hominid found in Europe. Anyway, there's no fraud here.
Oh, and let's not leave out the beautiful story that was propagated in 1983 where an American anthropologist claimed to have found the collarbone of a prehistoric man, an amazing discovery to be sure, especially when one considers that it actually turned out to be nothing more than the rib bone of a dolphin.
I could find no non-Creationist information on this one. The Creationist accounts say that Dr. Noel Boaz mistakenly identified a dolphin rib as a human collarbone, and the mistake was brought to public attention by Tim White, a paleontologist at UC Berkeley.
No scientist today accepts Piltdown Man, Nebraska Man or Boaz's dolphin bone. Scientists *do* overwhelmingly accept Lucy, and you've raised no points here that would cast doubt on her authenticity. The Peppered Moth experiments had flaws that probably mean that predation can not be considered as positively identified as the cause of the color changes, but the correlation of color changes with environmental changes is not in doubt. And Orce Man is still in dispute, with some scientists believing it hominid and some not.
What we have here is a record of scientists analyzing and following the evidence. The hominid fossil record is extremely extensive and very genuine. While scientists can understandably disagree about the species of a single skull fragment, there are simply far too many hominid remains that are much more extensive, in some cases fairly complete skeletons, to cast any doubt that they are hominids. Scientists also disagree about how to organize these fossil remains into species, and how these species fall on the human ancestral tree.
Summarizing, the point of the message I quoted was that Creationists accept as true many things for which there is no evidence, which violate common sense or known laws of physics, and which have a fairytale-like nature. You responded as if to trying to prove that scientists do the same, but clearly that is not the case.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by DarkStar, posted 08-19-2004 9:34 PM DarkStar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by DarkStar, posted 08-20-2004 10:38 PM Percy has replied

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