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Member (Idle past 1492 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
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Author | Topic: What is supernatural? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1430 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
That's it? Sorry, but in my book an unabashed hoaxer is an unabashed hoaxer, and everything he touches is tainted by his continued insistance on presenting the paluxy hoax as valid to the point where AIG barely restrains from calling him a liar in their list of "Which arguments should definitely not be used?" :
http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/faq/dont_use.asp
‘Paluxy tracks prove that humans and dinosaurs co-existed.’ Some prominent creationist promoters of these tracks have long since withdrawn their support. Some of the allegedly human tracks may be artefacts of erosion of dinosaur tracks obscuring the claw marks. There is a need for properly documented research on the tracks before we would use them to argue the coexistence of humans and dinosaurs ... This from AIG, which does not, IMHO, have a high standard for evidence -- so if he can't make that grade, it must be pretty bad. Now this is off topic (nothing in Carl Baugh's zoo of pet hoaxes has anything to do with the supernatural), but if you want to start a topic on Carl, I'm sure there will be people ready to continue this discussion. Nothing on how to document unknown 'extra' natural spiritual phenomena, sigh. we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}
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Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
This definition page was taken from WordIQ.com:
The Supernatural refers to conscious magical, religious or unknown forces that cannot ordinarily be perceived except through their effects. This word is often used interchangeably with preternatural or paranormal. Unlike natural forces, these putative supernatural forces can not be shown to exist by the scientific method. Claims of supernatural phenomena conflict directly and fundamentally with current scientific understanding.
A concept of the supernatural is generally identified with religion, although there is much debate as to whether a conception of the supernatural is necessary for religion (see The nature of God in Western theology and Anthropology of religion). Generally, most people contrast the supernatural with the natural, while some people believe that these two concepts are compatible. There have been many attempts to verify claims of supernatural phenomena scientifically. All are generally considered failures, although proponents often claimed to show startling and unusual results. Most scientists claim that the experiments are best classified as pseudoscience, that they have been experimentally flawed, statistically invalid, and/or not repeatable. Many critics of such experiments state that believers fool themselves into seeing results due to magical thinking. Many events once accepted as supernatural are now understood as manifestations of a natural, explainable nature that were misinterpreted. Most religious people claim that these phenomena, being essentially "unnatural," are not appropriate for scientific study (see also William James, The Variety of Religious Experience). The supernatural is also a topic in various genres of fiction, such as fantasy and horror. Some examples of supernatural phenomena are miracles, ghosts; psychic abilities like psychokinesis and telepathy are better classified as paranormal than supernatural. John Drane writes that science is perpetuating "intellectual arrogance" when it does not accept the possibility of supernatural events and miracles: "To say that unique events can never happen, or that the supernatural does not exist, when most people of most ethnic groups at most points in history have claimed otherwise, is merely to perpetuate the intellectual arrogance of previous generations of Western thinkers, and far from providing an answer to the questions raised by history it merely begs larger and more important questions about the nature of Western intellectual culture." In response, most scienists and historians regard such arguments as fundamentalist religious apologetics.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1492 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Better reread carefully my post which plainly states that from our perspective there can be the supernatural. How would that be supernatural from our perspective? It would simply mean that the laws of nature were a little different than what we thought, not that there was an order of existence above and seperate from nature.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1492 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
The Supernatural refers to conscious magical, religious or unknown forces that cannot ordinarily be perceived except through their effects. But nothing can be perceived except through its effects, and most of the natural forces we're aware of were "unknown" at some point.
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Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Crashfrog writes: Yes. I agree. I personally catagorize all supernatural phenomena as "spiritual" in that it is either the Holy Spirit or the other wannabe ones causing the "effects". Are you suggesting that eventually even spiritual effects will be understood as natural ones? nothing can be perceived except through its effects, and most of the natural forces we're aware of were "unknown" at some point.That there will be proven to be no spiritual realm?
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1492 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Are you suggesting that eventually even spiritual effects will be understood as natural ones? Why wouldn't they be? What would lead you to conclude that "spiritual effects" will never be understood?
That there will be proven to be no spiritual realm? Not exactly... I'm saying that what you consider the "spiritual realm" will come to be understood simply as a hitherto-unknown area of the natural realm.
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Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
crashfrog writes: So then, to you there is no spirtual realm in a perfect world,right? Everything is somehow natural, and we natives have to read more books. Right? Tear down your idols and Totem poles and pull out your laptops!
I'm saying that what you consider the "spiritual realm" will come to be understood simply as a hitherto-unknown area of the natural realm.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1492 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
So then, to you there is no spirtual realm in a perfect world,right? Not in a perfect world, in our world. In the real world. And anyway, why does saying that the spiritual realm is just a part of the natural world mean that there's no spiritual realm? I never said there wouldn't be a spiritual realm; just that the spiritual realm is still part of the natural world.
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Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Wow! You replied in like two minutes! Are you always online? I guess that judging from your number of posts that you are. Anyway....
To you there is no spiritual realm in a perfect world, right? crashfrog writes: So then, not in THIS world. Yet then you say: Not in a perfect world, in our world. In the real world.I never said there wouldn't be a spiritual realm; just that the spiritual realm is still part of the natural world. So I disagree. I maintain that since God is the source of Spirit and creation, He transcends the natural world. You, on the other hand,believe that human wisdom is the only source of reality, which I can respect. This leads to your conclusion that everything has an explanation eventually.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1492 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
To you there is no spiritual realm in a perfect world, right? What are you even talking about? No, not in a "perfect" world. In a perfect world, a benevolent God exists to make bad things never happen. So, obviously the "perfect" world has some spiritual realm or whatever; that's where God lives. But that spiritual world would still be part of the natural world. It has to be, for God to do things in the natural world.
So then, not in THIS world. Yet then you say: Yes, in this world. What world did you think I was talking about when I said "the real world"?
I maintain that since God is the source of Spirit and creation, He transcends the natural world. He can't trancend the natural world and still do things in the natural world. If he can do things in the natural world, he's part of the natural world. If there is a spiritual realm, and entities in this realm can do things in the natural world, that realm is part of the natural world.
You, on the other hand,believe that human wisdom is the only source of reality, which I can respect. Where do you get this stuff? Are you even reading my posts? Your responses bear no connection to anything I've written.
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Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
So then, to reclarify, there is to you either no spiritual realm in our current natural world or, if there is, it is a part of the natural world?
crashfrog writes: I maintain that since God is the source of Spirit and creation, He transcends the natural world. I never said there wouldn't be a spiritual realm; just that the spiritual realm is still part of the natural world.crashfrog writes: And I say that Jesus was born supernatutrally and became part of the natural world. Today, His Spirit, living on in Holy people(Holy only due to Gods grace) is a part of the natural world. So I guess that we agree somehow and somewhat. He can't trancend the natural world and still do things in the natural world. If he can do things in the natural world, he's part of the natural world. This message has been edited by Phatboy, 09-02-2004 03:10 AM
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Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
crashfrog writes: I am not saying that this has to be true, but let me ask you this: Do you think that given enough time, science and/or rational thought will be able to explain EVERY mystery in life? Are you so rational that you define the mysterious as mere unexplained natural phenomena? What would lead you to conclude that "spiritual effects" will never be understood?================================================================== This message has been edited by Phatboy, 09-11-2004 03:04 AM
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mike the wiz Member Posts: 4755 From: u.k Joined: |
He can't trancend the natural world and still do things in the natural world. If he can do things in the natural world, he's part of the natural world. He is supernatural, a spirit. He can infact intervene/interact with this world. If we assume he created this universe, then yes - we can assume he can interact, because he would have had to when making the universe. If he started/caused it, then he can interact. If I kick start my motorbike, I have to interact with it, yet you will not find me in the motorcycle. I can interact without being a part of it.
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mike the wiz Member Posts: 4755 From: u.k Joined: |
I have seen some paropyschologists and investigative type chaps try and fathom the meaning of ghosts. And despite members of their team being skeptics - they too reported what could only be described as anomolies. "Orbs" etc... A none-believer and his buddy (independent verifier), infact both "seen" a pair of legs that proceeded in disappearing. Whether these events could be attributed to the supernatural would infact require more evidence. The problem is, there could be numerous possible Theories that could explain these phenomena. So, I have atleast been a witness to scientists, trying to get their "hands on" the supernatural, and to be fair --> They were honest and tried hard but they couldn't find enough to confirm or deny anything.
So atleast in this case, I can say that science tried but it it didn't have much to work with, so I apreciate the truth of message one. My pennies worth, Thanks.
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coffee_addict Member (Idle past 502 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: |
mtw writes:
Well, the concept of ghosts, esp, aliens, etc. can possibly be explained scientifically once we have enough data. To say that something is supernatural because science can't explain it yet is like saying the phenomenon of things falling downward was supernatural before scientists discovered the gravitational laws. infact both "seen" a pair of legs that proceeded in disappearing. The Laminator We are the bog. Resistance is voltage over current.
For goodness's sake, please vote Democrat this November!
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