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Author | Topic: Show one complete lineage in evolution | |||||||||||||||||||||||
crashfrog Member (Idle past 1494 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Your classifications are not the way it is in the real world. No classification is the way it is in the real world, because all classifications are artifical groupings. Even species, when you think about it. To an organism, there's the individuals around them that they could mate with, and then there's everything else they can't. That's all the classification that exists in the natural world; trying to determine if the organism could mate with another individual over the next hill is artifical, human classification again. "Reptile" and "mammal" are just words we use for artifical, arbitrary groupings of animals; we might base those groupings on an arbitrary selection of physical characteristics but there's nothing inherently "mammal" or "reptile" or whatever about any organism.
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Robert Byers Member (Idle past 4396 days) Posts: 640 From: Toronto,canada Joined: |
No that would be stupid of me. You have shown no lineages of one kind to another. You have shown only common speciation.
I understand you see different jaws and see reptile into mammal. I see just one kind therapsid. It's still just that. Also yes I have expanded the differences allowable in a kind. This is new to you and many creationists but I have come to this conclusion and work from this point. Indeed there must be an expansion. The fossil record shows it. However still you all don't show what should be there. great numbersand kinds of great intermediaries. Not just jaws and feet. You don't show a complete lineage only a partial one and I say not that. Rob Try creatures alive today I suggest.
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Robert Byers Member (Idle past 4396 days) Posts: 640 From: Toronto,canada Joined: |
What I say is a common answer to supporters of evolution in this field.
We mean that all the changes between a camel and its mouse like ancester should be evident in the fossil record. All the way to today and many examlpes of the different kinds along the way.Instead zilch Rob
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1432 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
thanks for confirming that
now, again:
There should be endless abundance and between clear kinds of creatures. Not jaws and feet. Thats pathaticlly poor. Why? because you don't understand the process? I have asked you several times to expand this argument with detail and example, but so far all it is has been groundless assertion. PLEASE EXPLAIN IT. we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}
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sidelined Member (Idle past 5935 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
Robert Byers
We mean that all the changes between a camel and its mouse like ancester should be evident in the fossil record. All the way to today and many examlpes of the different kinds along the way. Instead zilch Wrong on both counts my good man.All the changes should only be evident in a perfect fossil record.No such thing exists and so we are left with an incomplete record and must examine it carefully and use our understanding of the bone structure of animals to surmise the most likely scenario for the fossil record that we do have.So zilch is also wrong because even though the fossil record isn't perfect we can apply our intellect to following the evidence and see what the evidence gives us amd combined with our thinking capabilities in concert with others who are observing the same evidence come to some sort of concensus as to the means by which this came about. It is best not to deal with absolute stances in a field where the preponderance of evidence from a vast number of scientific disciplines comes to the same consensus.Now if you have a beef about something specific rather than a general dislike of an overall field of study please make your case on that specific issue unless you have a viable refutation of the work of all these people in these different disciplines have come to agree upon. That is a nasty word evidence isn't it since it really does not care whether your beliefs conflict with it or not,as that is only your problem?Ideas about the facts cannot contradict the evidence of those facts.Pity the world has no obligation to accomodate our wishes to the contrary. Later.
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Mike_King Inactive Member |
Rob Byers wrote:
quote: There are fossil records of marine animals showing transistional changes in the geological sequence. Land animal fossils are extremely rare, simple reason is that the animals lived on land. Animal remains need to be buried quickly in sediment (Like washed away in a flooding river).The horse is a well documented case showing changes from its earliest ancestor to the presnt day.
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Loudmouth Inactive Member |
quote: What is common speciation?
quote: I don't see a Bible, I see a bunch of letters strewn on a page. Come on Rob. Look at reptiles now and what do you see? One middle ear bone, three lower jaw bones. Look at mammals today, what do you see? Three middle ear bones, one lower jaw bone. Look at mammal fetal development today and what do you see? Two bones in the lower jaw move up into the middle ear joining the single middle ear bone. What do we see in the fossil record? Over time, two lower jawbones moving up into the middle ear along with the development of numerous other mammalian charateristics. If I were a defense attorney I would want you in the jury box.
quote: Why should the fossil record contain every species that ever lived? For example, passenger pigeons numbered in the billions before man caused their extinction. We have yet to find a passenger pigeon fossil. Also, creationists claim that the preservation of complete fossils are indicative of rapid burial by a world wide flood? So the question to you is where are these millions of complete fossils buried at? Why do we keep finding one or two fossils for each species, and incomplete ones at that? Why don't we find millions upon millions of fossils due to this supposed rapid burial?
quote: The other problem is that we never know if a lineage is complete. Also, intermediate species may not differ in the make up of their skeleton. That is, we can't tell if two fossil species interbred or not. What we can see in the fossil record (such as the reptile to mammal transition) is general trends of morphology that happen over time.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1432 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Robert has basically said that "speciation within a kind" ("micro"evolution) now applies at the CLASS level:
http://EvC Forum: Show one complete lineage in evolution
Why should the fossil record contain every species that ever lived? yeah, I don't get where he comes up with "great numbersand kinds of great intermediaries" either, other than badly misunderstanding reality. we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}
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Robert Byers Member (Idle past 4396 days) Posts: 640 From: Toronto,canada Joined: |
I agree with everything you said and so should everybody. Indeed mating together is the whole point of speciation. If animals can mate together then they are the same kind. as for example they have produced offsping from a whale and a dolphine or something like that. Perhaps however speciation puts up some walls to mating,beyond behavior as since a whale was from the land originally I question if it could mate with its land ancester today or if that ancester had survived on the land. But perhaps it could.
Rob
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Robert Byers Member (Idle past 4396 days) Posts: 640 From: Toronto,canada Joined: |
I understand the problem of a incompletev record but it in fact very good. Great conclusions are drawn from it and so should a great conclusion that the abscence of intermediary's is leathal. Indeed evolutionists all by themselves deal with this. To say Just a little more time please is a cop-out..
New words here about what science is. SURMISE and FOLLOWING THE EVIDENCE and PREPONDERANCE OF EVIDENCE FROM A VAST NUMBER OF SCIENTIFIC DISOPLINES. All this is fine to creationists. Weighing, following, surmising evidence is legitamate in fields of study. HOWEVER IS IT SCIENCE. That is does it use the scientific method.This is our discussion and I say the method is a package deal and only the whole package mahes it the method. I say evolution has used evidences but that is still not the special case of scientific evidence. Very different. ROB
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Robert Byers Member (Idle past 4396 days) Posts: 640 From: Toronto,canada Joined: |
Back to the horsey's to show lineage. WOW.
Marine animal fossil could in a few cases show from point a to point b. I believe the whale was first a land critter. However the fossils would not be intermediate. That is just an interpretation. They in fact fit thier world fine and there is no agenda in speciation. AndRob
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Robert Byers Member (Idle past 4396 days) Posts: 640 From: Toronto,canada Joined: |
Bone structure in mammals and repltiles is not evidence or lack of ancestry. That is just a human interpretation waiting to be overthrown. For example one kind of tree sloth has another vertebra then the other kind in south America. However they have the same ancestry. The bone stuctures are adaptations only. The perceived progression of structure is a misinterpretation. It is not forceful evidence (certainly not scientific).
Rob
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Loudmouth Inactive Member |
quote: And they do:
Along with the time scale:
Again, cladistics and stratigraphy match up very well (as usual). This is a complete, smooth transitional series that are ordered in the fossil record. Go here for the full story.
quote: So what should an intermediate between a land mammal and an aquatic mammal look like? If our interpretation is incorrect, then what should the actuall intermediate look like?
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1432 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Let's cut to the chase and put the cards on the table here.
Robert writes: Indeed mating together is the whole point of speciation. If animals can mate together then they are the same kind. Let's suppose that we can show a living example of every single critter ever alive on the planet. Then that we can show that each "species" as classified by science can mate\interbreed with each adjoining "species" thus showing each and every differentiation between species to be "just speciation events" or "micro"evolution in the normal creationist parlance. This would mean that every single thing living is all of the original "kind" and "micro"evolution is all there is. When we compare this to what evolution says, it is remarkable similar. The differentiation into species and other classifications is really arbitrary, but useful for discussing the differences. When we compare this to what creationists normally say, it is fraught with problems, yet this is where Robert is going. The only myopia is thinking that because all animals are dividable into different groups in the present means they can be so divided in the past. The therapsids showed this to be false. Enjoy. we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}
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Robert Byers Member (Idle past 4396 days) Posts: 640 From: Toronto,canada Joined: |
Reaf your plankton thing but its just speciation and interpretation still to me.
About the whale and land relative. Speciation must of been a thing of only a few generations. Most completed within a few decades or centuries of the flood. There would be no intermediates in actuality. However there would be probably something in between the land and sea like a coastal creature like the sea otter. They filled all niches immediately and so inbetweens would be there but not as part of the speciation.Rob
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