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Author Topic:   Faith
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 31 of 216 (138443)
08-31-2004 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by riVeRraT
08-31-2004 11:21 AM


Re: Are there things outside those that can be tested?
So since nothing is ever proven, all things require an element of faith to believe in.
There you are, IMHO, wrong. There is a difference between faith and confidence.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by riVeRraT, posted 08-31-2004 11:21 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by riVeRraT, posted 08-31-2004 12:19 PM jar has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 32 of 216 (138458)
08-31-2004 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by happy_atheist
08-31-2004 11:31 AM


Re: Are there things outside those that can be tested?
Does that make it untrue?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by happy_atheist, posted 08-31-2004 11:31 AM happy_atheist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by happy_atheist, posted 08-31-2004 5:46 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 33 of 216 (138459)
08-31-2004 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by coffee_addict
08-31-2004 11:32 AM


I wouldn't fully trust any kind of reasoning.
I am also not saying that all faith has the same level of faithfulness, or trust.
But it would seem that everything we see or believe in has an element of faith and trust. So I can't see justifying believeing in something because it is more likely to produce a certain result more than another thing. Because if it has odds that the results will change, then it will change, no matter the odds. Thats my personal observation.
The odds are that the earth will turn and we will see the sun tomorrow, but it may be producing a harmful magnetic storm over night and wipe out every electronic component in the world and disable us to a point were the world population could collapse, so I'm not going to put my faith in it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by coffee_addict, posted 08-31-2004 11:32 AM coffee_addict has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by nator, posted 09-01-2004 10:26 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 34 of 216 (138460)
08-31-2004 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by happy_atheist
08-31-2004 11:32 AM


Re: Are there things outside those that can be tested?
I'm saying it appears to rise to you, but it actually doesn't rise.
So you would go and tell another person the sun is rising, and thats what he would think since, thats what he saw too every morning.
Plus just because you believe the sun will rise tomorrow doesn't actually mean its going to rise.
*edited to add a thought*
We are only a heartbeat away from some huge object colliding with us and either stopping our rotation, or somthering the earth's atmosphere with debri, so that we won't see the sun anymore. It happened a mere 65 million years ago, so we believe.
This message has been edited by riVeRraT, 08-31-2004 11:18 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by happy_atheist, posted 08-31-2004 11:32 AM happy_atheist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by jar, posted 08-31-2004 1:00 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 44 by happy_atheist, posted 08-31-2004 5:50 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 35 of 216 (138462)
08-31-2004 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by jar
08-31-2004 11:41 AM


Re: Are there things outside those that can be tested?
Yes, the difference is your level of trust, thats why I said "an element of faith"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by jar, posted 08-31-2004 11:41 AM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 36 of 216 (138479)
08-31-2004 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by riVeRraT
08-31-2004 12:15 PM


Re: Are there things outside those that can be tested?
We are only a heartbeat away from some huge object colliding with us and either stopping our rotation, or somthering the earth's atmosphere with debri, so that we won't see the sun anymore. It happened a mere 65 million years ago, so we believe.
Well, actually no. We can say with a very high degree of confidence that there is no huge object that can stop the earth's rotation anywhere nearby.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by riVeRraT, posted 08-31-2004 12:15 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by riVeRraT, posted 08-31-2004 1:28 PM jar has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 37 of 216 (138488)
08-31-2004 1:28 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by jar
08-31-2004 1:00 PM


Re: Are there things outside those that can be tested?
Again you are trying to address my concerns over astronomy threats, and you are not qualified to do so.
We cannot say that, not in the least. Of the known objects we can say they won't hit us anytime soon, unless they themselves get hit, and get thrown off course.
Comet hyutake missed us by less than the distance of the moon to earth.
We would not have been able to stop it. It went straight over our heads.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by jar, posted 08-31-2004 1:00 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Melchior, posted 08-31-2004 2:13 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 40 by jar, posted 08-31-2004 4:07 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
Melchior
Inactive Member


Message 38 of 216 (138505)
08-31-2004 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by riVeRraT
08-31-2004 1:28 PM


Re: Are there things outside those that can be tested?
Honestly, large life-threatening comets/objects are detected way more than a heartbeat before they would 'hit' us. While we might not be able to do much about it, it wouldn't be the suprise you make it out to be.
Our existance isn't that unstable, you know.
And please, at least get your info right.
The closest Hyutake/Hyakutake ever came to earth was 40 times the distance to the moon. We knew about the comet months before it arrived.
Check for example Nasa (Have faith in Nasa!) which says 0.1AU on 25th of March. (Comet Hyakutake Home Page (JPL))

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by riVeRraT, posted 08-31-2004 1:28 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by 1.61803, posted 08-31-2004 3:00 PM Melchior has not replied
 Message 45 by riVeRraT, posted 08-31-2004 6:54 PM Melchior has replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 39 of 216 (138531)
08-31-2004 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Melchior
08-31-2004 2:13 PM


Re: Are there things outside those that can be tested?
Melchior writes:
(Have faith in Nasa!)
Didn't they lose a Mars probe due to failing to convert Standard units to Metric?

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 40 of 216 (138544)
08-31-2004 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by riVeRraT
08-31-2004 1:28 PM


Re: Are there things outside those that can be tested?
Again you are trying to address my concerns over astronomy threats, and you are not qualified to do so.
We cannot say that, not in the least. Of the known objects we can say they won't hit us anytime soon, unless they themselves get hit, and get thrown off course.
I'm glad that you brought this up because I think it is very important and helps illustrate the difference between science and faith.
You had said
quote:
We are only a heartbeat away from some huge object colliding with us and either stopping our rotation, or somthering the earth's atmosphere with debri, so that we won't see the sun anymore. It happened a mere 65 million years ago, so we believe.
to which I replied.
quote:
Well, actually no. We can say with a very high degree of confidence that there is no huge object that can stop the earth's rotation anywhere nearby.
You went on to say again,
We cannot say that, not in the least.
We'll, we can say just that.
First, it would take something bigger than Jupiter and a whole bunch closer than Jupiter to have any measurable effect on the earth's rotation. Jupiter and Saturn are out there, they are close enough that they were seen and known to be planets, not stars, long before the Christian era. And they are dwarfs compared to the Sun.
Yet the most that the sun can do, big as it is, is effect the tides. Jupiter and Saturn have no measurable effect even on the tides.
So yes. I can say, even with my limited knowledge, that there is nothing out there close enough to be a threat to stop the rotation of the earth.
Comet hyutake missed us by less than the distance of the moon to earth.
We would not have been able to stop it. It went straight over our heads.
Wrong. It did not come inside the moon's orbit. But even if it had hit the earth, it would be unlikely to end life. Afterall, we have been through that before. It might well end the human phase and leave the world to the next species, but it is unlikely to end life.
Second, we would have had many months of warning if not years of warning before something like that happened. And it is not a given that we can do nothing about it. It is reason though to get some of the eggs out of the basket.
And that is the difference between faith and confidence.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by riVeRraT, posted 08-31-2004 1:28 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by riVeRraT, posted 08-31-2004 7:02 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 41 of 216 (138545)
08-31-2004 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by 1.61803
08-31-2004 3:00 PM


Re: Are there things outside those that can be tested?
Didn't they lose a Mars probe due to failing to convert Standard units to Metric?
Actually, IIRC, it was the conversion between Sacred Cubits and the Metric system that did it in.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by 1.61803, posted 08-31-2004 3:00 PM 1.61803 has not replied

  
PecosGeorge
Member (Idle past 6873 days)
Posts: 863
From: Texas
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 42 of 216 (138553)
08-31-2004 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by coffee_addict
08-11-2004 4:24 AM


Re: some things
Trust and faith are synonymous according the Merriam-Webster.
Entry Word: faith
Function: noun
Text: 1
Synonyms BELIEF 1, credence, credit
Contrasted Words dubiety, dubiosity, skepticism, uncertainty
2 Synonyms TRUST 1, confidence, dependence, hope, reliance, stock
Contrasted Words disbelief, incredulity, unbelief; apprehension, misgiving
3 Synonyms RELIGION 1, creed, cult, persuasion
4 Synonyms RELIGION 2, church, communion, connection, creed, cult, denomination, persuasion, sect
Related Word doctrines, dogmas, tenets

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by coffee_addict, posted 08-11-2004 4:24 AM coffee_addict has not replied

  
happy_atheist
Member (Idle past 4914 days)
Posts: 326
Joined: 08-21-2004


Message 43 of 216 (138577)
08-31-2004 5:46 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by riVeRraT
08-31-2004 12:06 PM


Re: Are there things outside those that can be tested?
no, i never said it made it untrue. I just said that it is a personal(subjective) opinion. You can't apply an objective test to see if i'm in love because it is different for everyone.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by riVeRraT, posted 08-31-2004 12:06 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by riVeRraT, posted 08-31-2004 7:04 PM happy_atheist has replied

  
happy_atheist
Member (Idle past 4914 days)
Posts: 326
Joined: 08-21-2004


Message 44 of 216 (138578)
08-31-2004 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by riVeRraT
08-31-2004 12:15 PM


Re: Are there things outside those that can be tested?
I was using "rise" figuratively. The sun stays (relatively) fixed and the earth spins, but the end result is that the relative position of the sun in our sky rises. I simply used that out of force of habit!
I agree that something could stop the apparent rising of the sun, although I highly doubt that anything could ever catesrophically stop the rotation of the earth relative to the sun. That would require something so precise as to be pretty much impossible. As to me believing the sun will rise tomorrow, I simply accept it as the most probable occurance (most probably by a very very long way).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by riVeRraT, posted 08-31-2004 12:15 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by riVeRraT, posted 08-31-2004 7:06 PM happy_atheist has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 45 of 216 (138598)
08-31-2004 6:54 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Melchior
08-31-2004 2:13 PM


Re: Are there things outside those that can be tested?
Oops, I made a mistake, it was less than 1,000,000 miles.
.10 AU which = 930,000 miles.
So the moon is less than 250,000 miles from us.
So basically it was less than 4 times the distance from us to the moon, not 100 times like you said.
I was 800,000 miles off with my mistake, but you were 24,070,000 miles off, so if you get your facts straight, I will get mine.
Either way my point is still valid, it was close enough to be of concern, and yes it was spotted, only because it was a comet. If was an asteriod, we might not have found it, or found it much later in its approach.
So tell me, what are the odds that something will hit the earth?
This message has been edited by riVeRraT, 08-31-2004 05:55 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Melchior, posted 08-31-2004 2:13 PM Melchior has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Melchior, posted 08-31-2004 7:22 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
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