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Author Topic:   LIFE! ... on VENUS ???
Tony650
Member (Idle past 4032 days)
Posts: 450
From: Australia
Joined: 01-30-2004


Message 6 of 34 (138190)
08-30-2004 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by RAZD
08-30-2004 4:23 PM


Re: life on onther planets
Heh, I was going to mention Europa...you beat me.
Something else, though; what about Titan? Doesn't it have a nitrogen/methane atmosphere thick with hydrocarbons? Is it considered a contender?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by RAZD, posted 08-30-2004 4:23 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by RAZD, posted 08-30-2004 6:51 PM Tony650 has replied

  
Tony650
Member (Idle past 4032 days)
Posts: 450
From: Australia
Joined: 01-30-2004


Message 11 of 34 (138252)
08-30-2004 8:07 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by RAZD
08-30-2004 6:51 PM


Re: life on onther planets
RAZD writes:
as far as I know these ones are listed as possible due to the presence of water.
Ah, of course.
RAZD writes:
the hydrocarbons in a nitrogen/methane atmosphere would definitely be an alien brew.
The hydrocarbons are what pricked my ears up.
RAZD writes:
there would need to be energy available and a concentrating medium (one of the things water does)
It doesn't have to be water, though, does it? Would methane not liquefy at temperatures that far out? Could it act as the medium? Or is there, perhaps, some property required that it doesn't have?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by RAZD, posted 08-30-2004 6:51 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by RAZD, posted 08-30-2004 8:37 PM Tony650 has replied

  
Tony650
Member (Idle past 4032 days)
Posts: 450
From: Australia
Joined: 01-30-2004


Message 14 of 34 (138354)
08-31-2004 4:05 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by RAZD
08-30-2004 8:37 PM


Re: life on other planets
RAZD writes:
The presence of hydrocarbons in outer space (detected at great distance even, so they were around when the solar system was forming) is now well known, more being added all the time. This means that they were probably accumulating on all the planets.
Now this is interesting; if they accumulated on all the planets, is there even a remote possibility, perhaps, that the Jovian planets could potentially develop life?
Just to be very clear, I don't think there is any life on the Jovian planets; I am speaking purely hypothetically.
Anyway, they are essentially giant, fluidic globes, correct? So there would be no shortage of mediums for the hydrocarbons to flow around freely in. However, I'm uncertain as to what specific properties a concentrating medium must have.
And to be honest, I'm not even 100% certain of the actual composition of the Jovian planets, themselves. I know they are "fluidic" in that they have no solid surface, but are they composed mostly of gas or liquid?
Or perhaps it is more of a "grey" area? Perhaps there is no clearly defined line where the "gas" stops and the "liquid" begins?
Let's take Jupiter, for example. Does Jupiter, in fact, have an "ocean-like" surface, above which its gaseous atmosphere sits? Or does its atmosphere simply start off very thin, at the highest altitudes, and gradually get denser as you go deeper, until finally, you are passing through dense liquid?
In other words, if you were to fly into Jupiter and head straight for the core, would there be, at some point, a definite "splash" or just a gradual, increasing resistance to your course?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by RAZD, posted 08-30-2004 8:37 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by RAZD, posted 08-31-2004 10:05 AM Tony650 has replied

  
Tony650
Member (Idle past 4032 days)
Posts: 450
From: Australia
Joined: 01-30-2004


Message 16 of 34 (138679)
09-01-2004 12:12 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by RAZD
08-31-2004 10:05 AM


Re: life on other planets
RAZD writes:
ever try to find the bottom of a lake with deep silty bottom? I think it's quite possible that there is no real "horizon" between "atmosphere" and "crust\mantle" as the density could increase until distinquishing what was which is impossible - even if there is a core of elements similar to those on earth.
Yes, that's what I was thinking.
RAZD writes:
The only way for there to be a discontinuity is for there to be either (1) a change in material (like here) or (2) a change in phase of the material, a sudden collapse of molecules into a new form not known here.
That's something I hadn't specifically considered; are the constituent elements/compounds of Jupiter (and the other Jovian planets) believed to be essentially the same all the way down, or are there definite changes as you get deeper?
By "changes" I mean do the actual substances themselves change as you travel down through them, or are they pretty much the same right through and only change in their density as you go deeper?
Thanks for the help, by the way, RAZD.

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 Message 15 by RAZD, posted 08-31-2004 10:05 AM RAZD has replied

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 Message 17 by RAZD, posted 09-01-2004 12:18 AM Tony650 has replied

  
Tony650
Member (Idle past 4032 days)
Posts: 450
From: Australia
Joined: 01-30-2004


Message 18 of 34 (138687)
09-01-2004 12:23 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by RAZD
09-01-2004 12:18 AM


Re: life on other planets
Haw haw! Well, let me know when you do.
But seriously, haven't they dropped probes into Jupiter to test these things? I seem to recall something like that being done a while back. Memory's hazy, though. I might try and look it up.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by RAZD, posted 09-01-2004 12:18 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by RAZD, posted 09-01-2004 12:44 AM Tony650 has replied
 Message 22 by jar, posted 09-01-2004 10:08 AM Tony650 has replied

  
Tony650
Member (Idle past 4032 days)
Posts: 450
From: Australia
Joined: 01-30-2004


Message 20 of 34 (138695)
09-01-2004 12:58 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by RAZD
09-01-2004 12:44 AM


Re: life on other planets
RAZD writes:
yes, but lost communication shortly after entry.
Oh right. Was it destroyed or was there just too much interference from the atmosphere?
RAZD writes:
they should try one that relaunches a "message bottle" back
Message bottle? Hey, slow down, egghead!
Ok, I assume that's a detachment from the probe which acts as a signal booster, yes?
That would work assuming it was just an interference problem. Wouldn't help much, though, if the probe was destroyed.
EDIT: Sorry to keep bothering you, by the way. I just find this stuff interesting.
This message has been edited by Tony650, 09-01-2004 12:01 AM

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 Message 19 by RAZD, posted 09-01-2004 12:44 AM RAZD has replied

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 Message 21 by RAZD, posted 09-01-2004 9:42 AM Tony650 has replied

  
Tony650
Member (Idle past 4032 days)
Posts: 450
From: Australia
Joined: 01-30-2004


Message 23 of 34 (138852)
09-01-2004 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by RAZD
09-01-2004 9:42 AM


Re: life on other planets
RAZD writes:
could be a booster or just a return data carrier, getting high enough to send.
Ah, I see.
RAZD writes:
the have been thoughts to use something more like a helium balloon rather than a parachut to stay high longer.
I think they need a slow "descent into the maelstrom"
Wouldn't it be better to descend into a calmer location? Or are there simply no calm locations on Jupiter? Maybe just relatively calm? Or perhaps the "eye of the storm" is the calmest location.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by RAZD, posted 09-01-2004 9:42 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by RAZD, posted 09-01-2004 5:53 PM Tony650 has replied

  
Tony650
Member (Idle past 4032 days)
Posts: 450
From: Australia
Joined: 01-30-2004


Message 24 of 34 (138853)
09-01-2004 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by jar
09-01-2004 10:08 AM


Re: life on other planets
jar writes:
Probes due to be dropped on Jan 14, 2005 IIRC.
Outstanding! Thanks for the info, jar!
How long does it actually take to get there? Has the probe been launched yet?
Thanks again, jar. This is greatly appreciated!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by jar, posted 09-01-2004 10:08 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by jar, posted 09-01-2004 3:33 PM Tony650 has replied

  
Tony650
Member (Idle past 4032 days)
Posts: 450
From: Australia
Joined: 01-30-2004


Message 31 of 34 (139076)
09-02-2004 4:55 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by jar
09-01-2004 3:33 PM


Re: life on other planets
jar writes:
For more information on all of the Jupiter missions go to NASA and search on Jupiter and Saturn. You'll findd lots of information on their composition.
I will. Thank you, jar!

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 Message 25 by jar, posted 09-01-2004 3:33 PM jar has not replied

  
Tony650
Member (Idle past 4032 days)
Posts: 450
From: Australia
Joined: 01-30-2004


Message 32 of 34 (139078)
09-02-2004 5:01 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by RAZD
09-01-2004 5:53 PM


Re: life on other planets
RAZD writes:
Go down the Red Spot? May not be representative ...
I figured that was what you meant by "descent into the maelstrom" and it also occurred to me that the eye of the storm may even be the "calmest" area to drop a probe.
Mind you, that's a total guess on my part. I really have no idea how severe (or serene) the weather patterns are elsewhere on Jupiter. My guess was based on the assumption that the planet is pretty violent all over, but this assumption could be completely wrong, of course.
RAZD writes:
ps NASA sites good advice.
Yes indeed! Have no fear, I will be going there. Thanks for the link.
RAZD writes:
Do you think it is possible for life to evolve in the atmosphere of jupiter and how would it be detected?
Would it be a large red colony of methane cloud bacteria?
I'm not sure if this was directed at me but to be honest, I have no idea. I suppose it is possible but I don't think it's likely. I'm not versed in organic chemistry, though, so I really couldn't say with any authority.
As to what it would be and how we could detect it, again, I simply don't have the requisite knowledge to say. I seem to recall someone (I think it was jar) pointing out that even if life were to rise on another planet, moon, etc, there is no guarantee that it would fit our definition of life. We may not even recognize it as such.
So who knows? Your "methane cloud bacteria" idea sounds as good as anything I could come up with.

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