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Author Topic:   LIFE! ... on VENUS ???
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 1 of 34 (137978)
08-29-2004 11:35 PM


I just ran across this article:
Was Venus Alive? 'The Signs are Probably There' (click for full article)
The planet Venus is like Earth in many ways. It has a similar size and mass, it is closer to us than any other planet, and it probably formed from the same sort of materials that formed Earth. For years scientists and science fiction writers dreamed of the exotic jungles and life forms that must inhabit Earth's twin sister.
David Grinspoon, a research scientist at the Southwest Research Institute in Boulder, Colorado, writes in his book, "Venus Revealed," that, through the Mariner 2 and other Venus missions, "we found our 'sister planet' to be chemically alien, as well as hot and dry to quite unearthly extremes. With these revelations, the twin-sister imagery quickly disappeared, and the notion that 'Venus is hell' took hold."
Only 20 percent of the sunlight that hits Venus makes it through the cloud cover, while the other 80 percent is reflected back into space. This reduced sunlight doesn't make Venus a cold world, however, because the thick carbon dioxide atmosphere traps the planet's heat. This greenhouse effect on Venus is often cited as a nightmare example of what could happen to Earth if we don't get our pollution under control.
In an interview, Grinspoon explains how Venus evolved from a wet planet similar to Earth to the scorching hot, dried-out furnace of today. Then he discusses the possibility that Venus was once an inhabited world.
.... (page down to) ...
The question of life
Astrobiology Magazine (AM): You've suggested, in contrast to the conventional view, that Venus may have held onto its water for perhaps as long as 2 billion years. What are the implications for habitability?
David Grinspoon (DG): For habitability, there are implications for Venus and there are implications for terrestrial planets in general. Venus almost certainly had liquid water when it was young. So the conditions for the origin of life, as conventionally defined, were satisfied there as much as on Earth and Mars.
perhaps the fundies are on the wrong planet ... ? (nudge wink)
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by RAZD, posted 08-30-2004 12:07 PM RAZD has not replied
 Message 8 by Gary, posted 08-30-2004 6:29 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 3 of 34 (138106)
08-30-2004 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
08-29-2004 11:35 PM


life on onther planets
Now we have three possible other places for life to have evolved (or co-evolved?) that can open a lot of interesting questions
Just so long as I don't have to do the field work on Venus ...

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by RAZD, posted 08-29-2004 11:35 PM RAZD has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by jar, posted 08-30-2004 3:20 PM RAZD has replied
 Message 7 by coffee_addict, posted 08-30-2004 5:50 PM RAZD has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 5 of 34 (138189)
08-30-2004 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by jar
08-30-2004 3:20 PM


Re: life on onther planets
heh.
so far ...
venus, mars and europa ... plus earth of course.
unless you are looking for intelligent life, in which case try seti for the nearest one ...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by jar, posted 08-30-2004 3:20 PM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Tony650, posted 08-30-2004 4:31 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 9 of 34 (138230)
08-30-2004 6:49 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Gary
08-30-2004 6:29 PM


heh
quite right you are.
Mars is somewhat temperate compared to Venus,
I think you get the understatement of the year award here.
and we are not even discussing the Sulfuric acid problem ... like I said -- I wouldn't want to do the field work.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Gary, posted 08-30-2004 6:29 PM Gary has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 10 of 34 (138231)
08-30-2004 6:51 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Tony650
08-30-2004 4:31 PM


Re: life on onther planets
as far as I know these ones are listed as possible due to the presence of water.
the hydrocarbons in a nitrogen/methane atmosphere would definitely be an alien brew. there would need to be energy available and a concentrating medium (one of the things water does)

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Tony650, posted 08-30-2004 4:31 PM Tony650 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Tony650, posted 08-30-2004 8:07 PM RAZD has replied
 Message 12 by jar, posted 08-30-2004 8:17 PM RAZD has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 13 of 34 (138256)
08-30-2004 8:37 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Tony650
08-30-2004 8:07 PM


Re: life on other planets
Liquid methane and ammonia have been talked about in science fiction for some time. The problem is to see how they can work similar to water or to envisage a different system -- the "we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand" problem.
The presence of hydrocarbons in outer space (detected at great distance even, so they were around when the solar system was forming) is now well known, more being added all the time. This means that they were probably accumulating on all the planets.
I wouldn't rule it out, but they don't have the home team advantage.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Tony650, posted 08-30-2004 8:07 PM Tony650 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Tony650, posted 08-31-2004 4:05 AM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 15 of 34 (138393)
08-31-2004 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Tony650
08-31-2004 4:05 AM


Re: life on other planets
ever try to find the bottom of a lake with deep silty bottom? I think it's quite possible that there is no real "horizon" between "atmosphere" and "crust\mantle" as the density could increase until distinquishing what was which is impossible - even if there is a core of elements similar to those on earth. The only way for there to be a discontinuity is for there to be either (1) a change in material (like here) or (2) a change in phase of the material, a sudden collapse of molecules into a new form not known here.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Tony650, posted 08-31-2004 4:05 AM Tony650 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Tony650, posted 09-01-2004 12:12 AM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 17 of 34 (138684)
09-01-2004 12:18 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Tony650
09-01-2004 12:12 AM


Re: life on other planets
essentially the same all the way down, or are there definite changes as you get deeper?
not a clue. I haven't been there yet.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Tony650, posted 09-01-2004 12:12 AM Tony650 has replied

Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 19 of 34 (138690)
09-01-2004 12:44 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Tony650
09-01-2004 12:23 AM


Re: life on other planets
yes, but lost communication shortly after entry. they should try one that relaunches a "message bottle" back

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Tony650, posted 09-01-2004 12:23 AM Tony650 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Tony650, posted 09-01-2004 12:58 AM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 21 of 34 (138745)
09-01-2004 9:42 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Tony650
09-01-2004 12:58 AM


Re: life on other planets
could be a booster or just a return data carrier, getting high enough to send.
the have been thoughts to use something more like a helium balloon rather than a parachut to stay high longer.
I think they need a slow "descent into the maelstrom"

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Tony650, posted 09-01-2004 12:58 AM Tony650 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Tony650, posted 09-01-2004 3:07 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 27 of 34 (138901)
09-01-2004 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Tony650
09-01-2004 3:07 PM


Re: life on other planets
Go down the Red Spot? May not be representative ...
ps NASA sites good advice.
NASA

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Tony650, posted 09-01-2004 3:07 PM Tony650 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Tony650, posted 09-02-2004 5:01 AM RAZD has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 29 of 34 (138965)
09-01-2004 9:53 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by jar
09-01-2004 6:35 PM


Re: life on other planets
yes, never heard much about it after that, what facts they gleaned from the event (especially that they hadn't already learned from Schumacher-Levy)

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by jar, posted 09-01-2004 6:35 PM jar has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 30 of 34 (138966)
09-01-2004 9:54 PM


Jupiter
Do you think it is possible for life to evolve in the atmosphere of jupiter and how would it be detected?
Would it be a large red colony of methane cloud bacteria?

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 34 of 34 (139119)
09-02-2004 10:04 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by contracycle
09-02-2004 6:40 AM


What we need is to drop more probes. And to build an O'neil cylinder.
to put O'Neil in? that would solve a lot of problems ...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by contracycle, posted 09-02-2004 6:40 AM contracycle has not replied

  
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