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Author Topic:   Faith
happy_atheist
Member (Idle past 4913 days)
Posts: 326
Joined: 08-21-2004


Message 76 of 216 (139138)
09-02-2004 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by riVeRraT
09-01-2004 9:00 PM


Re: Are there things outside those that can be tested?
I don't have faith in anything. I don't say that anything is 100% true, I just say some things are more likely than others. Since I can't prepare for every eventuality (there are an infinite number of things that may happen), I only take into consideration the ones that are actually likely to occur in my lifetime. If something cataclysmic happens it is completely beyond my control. I will likely be dead and won't need to worry about it. I don't have faith it won't happen though, i know full well there's a minute possibility it will.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by riVeRraT, posted 09-01-2004 9:00 PM riVeRraT has not replied

  
happy_atheist
Member (Idle past 4913 days)
Posts: 326
Joined: 08-21-2004


Message 77 of 216 (139139)
09-02-2004 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by riVeRraT
09-01-2004 9:05 PM


Re: Are there things outside those that can be tested?
i'm not saying it wouldn't alter the rotation, i'm saying it wouldn't stop the rotation relative to the sun. As long as the earth is rotating relative to the sun, the sun will appear to rise.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by riVeRraT, posted 09-01-2004 9:05 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
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happy_atheist
Member (Idle past 4913 days)
Posts: 326
Joined: 08-21-2004


Message 78 of 216 (139144)
09-02-2004 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by riVeRraT
09-02-2004 9:00 AM


Re: Are there things outside those that can be tested?
someone who believed what scientists said to the extent that they relied on what they said being true in a cruicial situation would be being very silly. All scientific work is open for scrutiny by anyone who wishes to look at it. Scientists sometimes get things wrong, so I for one wouldn't believe something to the extent that I relied on it without at least seeing for myself that what they said is likely to be true.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by riVeRraT, posted 09-02-2004 9:00 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by riVeRraT, posted 09-02-2004 7:37 PM happy_atheist has replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 79 of 216 (139154)
09-02-2004 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by jar
09-01-2004 10:48 PM


Earth's mass
The Earth has a mass of about 5,974,200,000,000,000,000,000,000 metric tons.
You seem to be high by a factor of 1,000. The figure given should be in units of kg not tonnes.
from:How was Earth's Mass Determined? - Enchanted Learning
or Mass of the Earth - The Physics Factbook

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 Message 72 by jar, posted 09-01-2004 10:48 PM jar has replied

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 80 of 216 (139164)
09-02-2004 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by NosyNed
09-02-2004 12:16 PM


Re: Earth's mass
You're right.

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 Message 79 by NosyNed, posted 09-02-2004 12:16 PM NosyNed has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 81 of 216 (139283)
09-02-2004 7:37 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by happy_atheist
09-02-2004 11:34 AM


Re: Are there things outside those that can be tested?
It would be so nice if the rest of the world thought that way.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by happy_atheist, posted 09-02-2004 11:34 AM happy_atheist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by happy_atheist, posted 09-03-2004 2:49 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 82 of 216 (139315)
09-02-2004 9:48 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by riVeRraT
09-02-2004 8:51 AM


But I CAN predict with very high accuracy that your skull would be very likely to hit the pavement and be crushed, killing you, if you were to dive headfirst off of a highway overpass.
quote:
Which means.....Ta DA! Nothing.
It is actually a direct refutation of your statement that claimed:
So I can't see justifying believeing in something because it is more likely to produce a certain result more than another thing. Because if it has odds that the results will change,then it will change, no matter the odds. Thats my personal observation.
So, you must not believe that it is justified to believe that it is more likely that you will crush your skull on the pavement after diving off of a highway overpass than any other thing happening.
The odds are very slight that something else might happen, but according to you, then the results will change, no matter the odds.
Why do you refuse to let go of this illogical view of yours? Pride?
quote:
You just don't get it.
Yeah, and I hope I never catch it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by riVeRraT, posted 09-02-2004 8:51 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by riVeRraT, posted 09-03-2004 6:37 AM nator has replied
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 Message 86 by riVeRraT, posted 09-03-2004 6:55 AM nator has not replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 83 of 216 (139318)
09-02-2004 9:55 PM


*oops*
This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 09-02-2004 08:58 PM

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 84 of 216 (139501)
09-03-2004 6:37 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by nator
09-02-2004 9:48 PM


It is actually a direct refutation of your statement that claimed:
No, its actually in direct support of what I am saying, here I will explain it to you since you don't get it, and you don't want to catch either.
I never said it isn't more likely that I will crush my skull if I jump off a bridge into the pavement, you said that.
What I'm saying is that it is not 100% sure that I will crush my skull or die, since people fall out of planes and survive, and people fall off buildings and survive, or the remote chance that a truck full of hay will drive by and break my fall, or an earthquake will happen and the pavemen will open up to a soft bed of fertile dirt. I personally knew a guy who fell 7 stories off a building and only broke his back. When I was a kid I fell 15 feet off a garage roof and landed on a wooden horse with only a minor scratch on my neck. I also could flip during the fall, and actually not land on my head at all. Their are just to many variables for me to put my complete FAITH in the idea that I would die 100%.
So your odds of me crushing my skull turn out to be not something that you really can predict with any degree of accuracy at all. I also believe that odds are person specific. You might say, since 1,000,000 people have jumped off bridges and 900,000 have crushed their skulls, that you have a 90% chance of crushing your skull. This observation is completely inaccurate. We can only say that 90% of the people who have jumped already have crushed their skulls, but to say that it would happen to me, would be guessing. To have FAITH that it would happen to me, would be IMO wrong. Maybe God doesn't want me to die yet, so I actually have 0% chance of crushing my skull, can you prove me wrong?
What we can say with 100% acurracy is that if gravity is in effect, and nothing is in the way, and no outside forces interfere, that something will fall if dropped. This is a scientific theory that I could accept. What are the odds that this would change, I think just about 0%. But if there is an odd that could change it, then it would indeed change one day. So, I am not going to let that be my God.
Why do you refuse to let go of this illogical view of yours? Pride?
I have already proven that I do not have any pride. I have no problem admitting when I'm wrong, I have done it a few times already in these forums. I wish I could say the same for others. I can always learn from others, as I do not know it all. I can even learn from an uneducated homeless person, drunk out of his mind on a street in NYC. Or I could learn from someone who hates God and worships the devil. I can even learn from you.
So if you can't admitt that there is an ELEMENT of faith to believe in science, then you seem to be the one with pride problems. I will remind you again, I am not saying if putting your faith in science is a good or bad thing.
This message has been edited by riVeRraT, 09-03-2004 05:39 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by nator, posted 09-02-2004 9:48 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by nator, posted 09-03-2004 9:43 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 85 of 216 (139503)
09-03-2004 6:48 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by nator
09-02-2004 9:48 PM


One more thing about odds, since you seem to love them so much.
Question, pharmiceutical companys even print odds in their medicine safety sheets. They might say something like .1% of people who take viagra will have a woody for the rest of their lives.
Ok so does that mean I have a .1% chance of getting a woody for the rest of my life, or does it mean the person who was created to react to that drug has a 100% chance of reacting bad to that drug, and he is the only one who will get the woody for the rest of his life.
I know how your going to answer, your going to tell me that it is .1% of the people who take the drug who could have that reaction. So if I'm the one who's going to have that reaction, what does that odd mean to me? Nothing TA DA! because I have a 100% chance of reacting with that drug, and thats what I need to know.
So if I took that drug and put my FAITH in the idea that I have .1% chance of not getting a woody for the rest of my life, and not think to myself I am taking a big chance no matter what the odds, who's the fool?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by nator, posted 09-02-2004 9:48 PM nator has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 86 of 216 (139505)
09-03-2004 6:55 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by nator
09-02-2004 9:48 PM


Here's another question about odds.
I have jumped off a bridge several times in my life. I jump off a 35ft bridge in Pennsylvania into the water all the time. What are my odds that I will get hurt?
Wait, I'll try to answer for you again, your going to say, that all depends, a boat could come by, and bird could fly in my face, I could jump wrong. A lot of things could happen that could make me get hurt when jumping. But the odds are if you attempt to jump right, you won't get hurt. GREAT!
But, at the very moment that you jump, you still say to yourself, I hope I don't get hurt. You also sometimes, even though the odds are in your favor, throw caution to the wind. So I put my FAITH in a hope that I won't get hurt. What does this all mean?
Ta Da ! Nothing. Because people will still cut the wires in that fence and jump off that bridge for years to come.
This message has been edited by riVeRraT, 09-03-2004 05:56 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by nator, posted 09-02-2004 9:48 PM nator has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 87 of 216 (139506)
09-03-2004 6:58 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by happy_atheist
09-02-2004 11:25 AM


Re: Are there things outside those that can be tested?
Off topic question,
If you die tomorrow (I hope you don't) does the sun still rise?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by happy_atheist, posted 09-02-2004 11:25 AM happy_atheist has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 88 of 216 (139525)
09-03-2004 9:43 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by riVeRraT
09-03-2004 6:37 AM


quote:
So your odds of me crushing my skull turn out to be not something that you really can predict with any degree of accuracy at all. I also believe that odds are person specific. You might say, since 1,000,000 people have jumped off bridges and 900,000 have crushed their skulls, that you have a 90% chance of crushing your skull. This observation is completely inaccurate. We can only say that 90% of the people who have jumped already have crushed their skulls, but to say that it would happen to me, would be guessing. To have FAITH that it would happen to me, would be IMO wrong. Maybe God doesn't want me to die yet, so I actually have 0% chance of crushing my skull, can you prove me wrong?
I am quite comfortable thinking that the probability is high that you would crush your skull if you dove head first off of a highway overpass.
If you hold to your original claim that because the odds are not 100% that this would happen that ANYTHING that could happen is going to happen REGARDLESS OF THE ODDS, then why don't you do the deed and see what happens?
Isn't the reason you DON'T dive head first off of a highway overpass because you also consider it likely that you would crush your skull on the pavement and die?
Do you or don't you believe that this is an extremely likely outcome?
quote:
What we can say with 100% acurracy is that if gravity is in effect,
No we can't.
We can say this with strong confidence that approaches 100%, but since we are not omnicient, we could be wrong that gravity is in effect. There could be another force that we don't know about which is affecting us that we haven't found yet, or may never find.
quote:
This is a scientific theory that I could accept. What are the odds that this would change, I think just about 0%.
Yep, the odds that this will change are just about zero percent, but the tenets of science do not allow us to say that we know anything at all at 100% accuracy.
Besides, you do know that there are several various competing theories of gravity, don't you, and that we don't really understand how it works very well?
quote:
But if there is an odd that could change it, then it would indeed change one day. So, I am not going to let that be my God
Good, neither am I.
quote:
So if you can't admitt that there is an ELEMENT of faith to believe in science
Is there an element of faith in statistics, riverrat?
Is there an element of faith in probability figures?
Is there an element of faith in mathematics?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by riVeRraT, posted 09-03-2004 6:37 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by riVeRraT, posted 09-04-2004 11:13 AM nator has replied

  
happy_atheist
Member (Idle past 4913 days)
Posts: 326
Joined: 08-21-2004


Message 89 of 216 (139565)
09-03-2004 12:13 PM


I think the best definition of faith we can glean from our discussion here is that faith is believing that the outcome you desire will happen 100% even though it's not certain that outcome will happen. It's pretty clear that no one here believes that the outcome they desire will happen just because they want it to. From what I can tell, everyone accepts the possibility that something other than the outcome they desire could occur, no matter how improbable. That to me means that no faith is involved.

Replies to this message:
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happy_atheist
Member (Idle past 4913 days)
Posts: 326
Joined: 08-21-2004


Message 90 of 216 (139613)
09-03-2004 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by riVeRraT
09-02-2004 7:37 PM


Re: Are there things outside those that can be tested?
riVeRrat writes:
It would be so nice if the rest of the world thought that way.
Thankfully the scientific community thinks that way, hence why they demand work be submitted for peer review. As long as the scientific community keep doing that things should be ok

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by riVeRraT, posted 09-02-2004 7:37 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by riVeRraT, posted 09-04-2004 11:20 AM happy_atheist has replied

  
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