New Book: Kerry ‘Unfit for Command’

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Managing a football team is leadership? WOW.

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Not to take anything away from your post because I know this is trivial but he partly owned a baseball team not a football team.

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-porcelain

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This assumes that the war in Iraq is in any way related to the "war" on terror. It isn't. Shrub had the plan to invade Iraq ready to go before 911 and was waiting for an opportunity to impliment it. My laptop is down (will have to rebuild tommorrow, yech) so I do not have the bookmark for the site with this information, it is a neocon site and lists cheney and others as members (It also talks about 'whatevers' new world order).

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No problem, I believe you, you have proven time and time again, an evidence provider. All I want to hear is Schraf admit that comparing Bush Sr. and Jr. is foolish, 9/11 would have changed what went on during Bush Sr.'s time as pres.If she cannot admit that being true, than I don't know what to say...

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what danger where? Last I saw, Iraq had barely the ability to attack Iran again.

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Not going to argue this, but a reasonable suggestion might be Saddam Hussein?

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"Wake up, O sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you."Ephesians 5:14

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Really? How, do you think?

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Are you saying that Sr. would have changed his opinion completely and would have invaded a sovereign nation to get it's oil? Do you think Sr. would have sent almost 1,000 American soldiers to their deaths for the oil? Do you think Sr., the former head of the CIA, would have been so gullible and dumb about the very shaky intelligence?

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Funny how oil comes into the conversation, isn't it?
Funny how you like to put words in my mouth, isn't it?
Funny how you ask the above questions with such vindication, isn't it?But would I expect anymore than that from you, nope.I never actually stated how 9/11 would force Sr. into war, I merely said things would have been different. Wouldn't you agree?

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{the stuff from gwb.com that you are questioning}

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It's from his campaign website, what do you expect?A plan was needed for the actions that pres. went through with. Again I don't care how uneffiecient, inadequate, too simple, or too slow it might have been.

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:"Let's go bomb 'em and get the oil, install some puppet government that we still control."

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wow lolThis message has been edited by prophex, 09-02-2004 09:47 PM

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"Wake up, O sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you."Ephesians 5:14

It's not to 600 messages, but it is approaching 500.Besideds, much seems to be stuff that should be in the GWB topic (although there's probably a lot of Kerry stuff there too).Adminnemooseus

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ARE YOU STALKING ME???just kidding lol

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"Wake up, O sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you."Ephesians 5:14

heh. I "corrected it from baseball to football. my bad I find most american preoccupation with sports rather amusing and non-productive - I'd rather play than watch.

well it's official the hard drive went south and all on it is lost. fortunately for me the worst of the loss is bookmarks and not work (whew)I dont' think 911 would have changed seniors approach to Iraq. It may have made him even less likely to go in (a) knowing what a rats nest it would become (read his book on this) and (b) not wanting to spread his troops out too far when they would be needed for afganistan.Pop was head of the CIA and would have paid better attention to the 'spooks'

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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

can you talk about attacks on Kery and not talk about Bush?

Look, there's no two ways about the official Naval records; they support Kerry's accounts and contradict the Swift Boat accounts. There's no two sides about it. The Naval records support one story - Kerry's.I don't understand this "both ways" argument. There's only one true story about what happened that day; you can find it in the Naval records, and it largely supports Kerry's story and contradicts the SBVT stories. I don't know what "other side" there is about this. No, I was referring to the actual events, as substantiated by mutiple official, independant sources. It's the truth. Bush waited as the towers burned. He finished a kiddie book instead of leading the country.I don't know what you call it, but I don't call it "effective leadership." I see it as evidence of a catastrophic lack of leadership in the clutch.When Kerry is in the clutch, he puts his life at risk to save lives and do what needs to be done. There's the statements of many of his fellow soldiers and officers - some of them now part of the SBVT - that attest to this.When Bush is in the clutch, he sits on his ass. It's on tape.I don't see how it gets any clearer than that. Kerry is the better leader. Don't mistake me for you. If you've got evidence that what I'm saying is wrong, I'll look at it. If you've got evidence that Bush is the better leader, let's see it. If you think he did something besides read a book for 7 minutes as people died in New York, lets see the tape.I'm not like you. When evidence is shown to me, I give it credence. You could even change my mind, but it won't be easy.

Well, he's only been a US Senator for two decades, but I guess that doesn't count in Cheney-land. Of course, Cheney was a senator too. But somehow he gets to put that on his leadership resume, and Kerry doesn't?Please. Oh, he only commanded a boat in Vietnam and held the lives of four other people in his hand. I guess that doesn't count, either? ???Voting isn't a decision? Well, I see much more risk of foreign aggression with our military tied down in a needless occupation. But that's just me, I guess.

In Summary, its the Vets verses Kerry, the basis of this thread, not George Bush verses John Kerry, so I reposted the letter the Vets sent in May 2004, in a letter to Mr. John Kerry to release his complete naval military & medical records, I also included Oliver North's letter to Mr. Kerry, and Kerry promise he would release his complete naval military & medical records, however only releasing an incomplete military record, and refuses to release his complete naval military & medical records, hmmmm.......The Vets got him, when Kerry flipped by saying his military record makes him qualified to lead this nation, then reneged to release his complete naval military & medical records, etc...Page not found - Plaza | Fretag i StockholmPage not found - Plaza | Fretag i StockholmOliver Norths letter to John Kerry.http://www.townhall.com/.../ollienorth/printon20040827.shtmlSwiftVets letter to John KerrySwift Vets and POWs for Truth - Swift Veterans Letter to John KerryKerry reneges on providing a complete naval military and naval records.http://www.newsmax.com/...es/articles/2004/4/20/171506.shtmlThis message has been edited by whatever, 09-03-2004 02:06 AM

OK, Kerry and Bush discussion is properly doomed to be mixed.That said, I'm not interested in debating the Kerry records (not that they are not worth debating - I'm sure others are willing).But what I and others would like to see released, are the government records concerning the formulation of energy policy. These should have been released a long time ago, not as part of the election campaign, but as something the public has a right to know about.This topic will be closed at or about 600 messages, least it suffer technical damage.Moose (w/ a little AM)

SBV's say they would not have brought this up if Kerry was not running for President, because it did not matter so much anymore to them. Some did not know what the Naval record said, either. They wrote him off as a traitorous non-team player, but the war was over, and they could put that behind them.... they thought.The Naval record is what those in power wanted it to say. I have heard from the generals of the time that Purple Hearts were more freely given out during the Vietnam war, to try to bolster the moral in the face of growing doubt of worthiness.These SBV's are passionate about the deception of Kerry and his anti-Military actions, predominantly the ones they witnessed.Usually, the military folks band together and overlook political differences. Witness McCain and the lack of incidents like this for any other candidate. However, the fact that these Republican and Democratic SBVs are going to extra effort to make their point. It's not just some interviewer who looked them up and asked a question.

You are forming your own opinion of what a leader should do in that situation. Other leaders disagree with your interpretation. So, the case is not crystal clear that he acted as a poor leader. What is clear is that his leadership on fighting terrorism is what a lot of us are looking for.Regarding the incident you cite, the chain of command depends upon information from subordinates. The country is generally prepared for anticipated attack events, and not dependent upon the President's command to respond. This was an unanticipated event, like Pearl Harbor. In the case of Pearl Harbor, it was clear who the attacker was. It was not clear for World Trade Center. Bush needed more information, just as any commander on a battlefield would need before making an unplanned decision.The fact is, there is nothing the President could have done at that time more than what he did. It's not like he could have stopped the planes. Monday morning quarterbacking is easy.

Voting is a very minor decision compared to actually making things happen.Luckily, Kerry's voting decisions on military issues were not the final decisions, as Zell Miller pointed out.Since you brought it up, voting is not one of Kerry strengths. It seems he was absent quite often. Seems like that is not good leadership, if voting is your criteria.