Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,815 Year: 3,072/9,624 Month: 917/1,588 Week: 100/223 Day: 11/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Psychology looks at atheism and theism. Also, atheism is tenuous/non-existent/rare ..
kendemyer
Inactive Member


Message 136 of 297 (139387)
09-03-2004 12:08 AM
Reply to: Message 135 by mikehager
09-03-2004 12:03 AM


Re: correction
to: mikehager
Please see this link. It reminds me of someone: Wicked Cool Stuff! Fun Gift Ideas for everyone on your list!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by mikehager, posted 09-03-2004 12:03 AM mikehager has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by mikehager, posted 09-03-2004 1:15 AM kendemyer has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 137 of 297 (139390)
09-03-2004 12:12 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by kendemyer
09-01-2004 8:12 PM


Kenny
Would you like to address Hypatia and her murder by Christians?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by kendemyer, posted 09-01-2004 8:12 PM kendemyer has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by kendemyer, posted 09-03-2004 12:14 AM jar has replied
 Message 139 by kendemyer, posted 09-03-2004 12:21 AM jar has not replied

  
kendemyer
Inactive Member


Message 138 of 297 (139393)
09-03-2004 12:14 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by jar
09-03-2004 12:12 AM


to: jar
Please provide a link

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by jar, posted 09-03-2004 12:12 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by jar, posted 09-03-2004 12:23 AM kendemyer has replied

  
kendemyer
Inactive Member


Message 139 of 297 (139396)
09-03-2004 12:21 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by jar
09-03-2004 12:12 AM


to: jar
TO: Jar
From a skeptics site:
quote:
Carl Sagan introduced me to my heroine, Hypatia of Alexandria. Only given a brief, passing mention on one of the "Cosmos" episodes, the tragic story of Hypatia really caught my attention and inspired me to find out more about this little-known figure of ancient history. Alive during the time of St. Augustine and St. Patrick, around the early part of the fifth century A.D., Hypatia was the young and beautiful and educated librarian at the famed Library of Alexandria, which by the 3rd century B.C. housed the world’s largest collection of manuscriptsover half a million. Hypatia was sought after by many suitors, but turned them all down so she could keep her independence. She was well-versed in mathematics, history, literature, rhetoric, and science. It was a dangerous position for a woman of her talents to be in; Christianity had begun to supplant the ancient pagan ways and the new religion had little tolerance for women who could not keep their place. Furthermore, although it’s unclear as to whether Hypatia was a pagan or an atheist , she most certainly refused to convert to the upstart religion.
taken from: Home Page

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by jar, posted 09-03-2004 12:12 AM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by Gilgamesh, posted 09-03-2004 12:54 AM kendemyer has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 140 of 297 (139397)
09-03-2004 12:23 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by kendemyer
09-03-2004 12:14 AM


Re: to: jar
Are you saying that you can seriously come here talking about martyrs and not even be familar with Hypatia of Alexandria?
Can I suggest that you take a break and do a little research on this whole subject and perhaps return once you have a basic understanding of history?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by kendemyer, posted 09-03-2004 12:14 AM kendemyer has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by kendemyer, posted 09-03-2004 12:24 AM jar has replied

  
kendemyer
Inactive Member


Message 141 of 297 (139398)
09-03-2004 12:24 AM
Reply to: Message 140 by jar
09-03-2004 12:23 AM


Re: to: jar
see my last post. Plus the burden of proof is upon the claimant in debates. Do not be so coy. Give your evidence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by jar, posted 09-03-2004 12:23 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by jar, posted 09-03-2004 1:06 AM kendemyer has not replied

  
kendemyer
Inactive Member


Message 142 of 297 (139419)
09-03-2004 12:51 AM
Reply to: Message 135 by mikehager
09-03-2004 12:03 AM


Re: correction
to: chiro
You wrote:
quote:
It is an assumption most people make about most other people, unless the person is known to be unreliable, either by present actions or by prior reputation.
First of all, most people is an appeal to popularity.
Second, you need to address the information in my first post regarding the mental wellness of professed atheist and the degree that some of the prominent ones waver. You also have not addressed the self absorbtion issue and its implications.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by mikehager, posted 09-03-2004 12:03 AM mikehager has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by Chiroptera, posted 09-03-2004 1:03 AM kendemyer has not replied

  
Gilgamesh
Inactive Member


Message 143 of 297 (139425)
09-03-2004 12:54 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by kendemyer
09-03-2004 12:21 AM


Re: to: jar
I am an atheist.
I offer the following in support of my own atheism (and this probably applies to many other atheists).
1) I can meticulously rationalise and explain why, beyond all reasonable doubt, that the Christian God does not exist. I can also demonstrate the non-existence of the Christian God by testing Christian claims. This forms the basis of my professed belief in atheism.
2) It would be absurd for me to profess atheism, if I had any doubt about the non-existence of the Christian God because by doing so I risk eternal damnation.
3) If I died right now I would gladly die an atheist.
Atheist martyrs?
As I stated above, logically we could not expect to see an atheist dying for the cause of atheism, because to the atheist life is infinitely valuable. We would actually expect an atheist to pay lip service to any faith, if failure to do so would result in his earthly demise.
We still see atheist "martyrs" in a sense, EVERY TIME SOMEONE DIES AN ATHEIST.
Given that Christianity allows repentance and salvation at any time, why would anyone then chose to die an atheist, unless they REALLY were an atheist?
I further propose that religious martyrdom is an excellent example of mental un-wellness. Given the number of religions and number of mutually exclusive denominations within those religions, logically the vast majority of all martyrs die in vain and will not achieve their goal of eternal salvation.
That's totally crazy.
Finally, Ken, I note that you didn't address my earlier point on the issue of atheism and mental wellness. If religiosity is a evolutionary trait we would expect to see some sort of negative indicator amongst those who are not religious. Not necessarily amongst all: but some.
Over 90% of the world's population have beliefs of some kind, ranging from fundamentalism down to vague, watery, feel good spirituality to "plug the gap" so to speak.
I agree religion plays an important role in the psyche of the vast population in the world. This role is fulfilled, whether the beliefs are right or wrong. If you are trying to promote religion based on the studies you posted in the first post, then I suggest those who find this argument compelling seek out a vague, watery, feel good spirituality to provide the required endorphins and leave the dangers of fundamentalism to those impressionable few.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by kendemyer, posted 09-03-2004 12:21 AM kendemyer has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 144 of 297 (139433)
09-03-2004 1:03 AM
Reply to: Message 142 by kendemyer
09-03-2004 12:51 AM


Re: correction
You presented no information whatsoever regarding atheism and mental health. You posted a link to a Mayo Clinic study that had nothing to do with atheism.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by kendemyer, posted 09-03-2004 12:51 AM kendemyer has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 145 of 297 (139434)
09-03-2004 1:06 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by kendemyer
09-03-2004 12:24 AM


Re: to: jar
I thought I did give evidence. She was a pagan/atheist who was martyred, murdered by Christians.
Seems pretty clear.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by kendemyer, posted 09-03-2004 12:24 AM kendemyer has not replied

  
Darwin Storm
Inactive Member


Message 146 of 297 (139435)
09-03-2004 1:09 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by kendemyer
09-01-2004 8:12 PM


After trying to engange Kendemyer in a discussion to address the numerous faults and fallacies with his arguement. Since he has refused to deal with individual points, and address the various points raised, I will simply take his intial post and show how his arguement, standards, and logic (or lack there of) are abyssmal.
First of all, I would suggest that most and perhaps all professed atheists are doubleminded and that atheistic thoughts are hard to consistently maintain in the human mind - especially a human mind that is in quest of truth. I realize that these are fighting words but you must admit that I now have your full attention!
You suggestion is unsupported opinion. You imply that atheism is hard to maintain as an ideology, I disagree. Now, neither of us can speak for all athiests, but I, as an "professed" athiest, can say it isn't difficult for me to be an athiest of all. Now, none of your words are fighting words, just dumb assumptions on your part.
Next, one must consider that to my knowledge there are no materialist martyrs so it is at least a valid question on whether or not a specific professed atheist truly lacks a belief there is a God (Fox's Book of Martyrs offers sufficient evidence regarding the sincerity of Christians. If a professed materialist wishes to dispute the sincerity of Christian martyrs, I would suggest they at least offer one materialist martyr with a supporting link first). There is certainly no real empirical evidence that professed atheists truly lack a belief there is no God.
Your first fallacy is an arguement from ignorance. Your simple lack of knowledge concering "martyrs" who are athiests doesn't mean they don't exist. Your second fallacy in this paragraph is that the death of "proffessed" christians somehow verifies sincerity. This entire paragraph has no bearing on your supposed arguement that atheists and atheism don't exist.
A website declares Sartre as saying in Harper's magazine:
"As for me, I don’t see myself as so much dust that has appeared in the world but as a being that was expected, prefigured, called forth. In short, as a being that could, it seems, come only from a creator; and this idea of a creating hand that created me refers me back to God. Naturally this is not a clear, exact idea that I set in motion every time I think of myself. It contradicts many of my other ideas; but it is there, floating vaguely. And when I think of myself I often think rather in this way, for wont of being able to think otherwise."
taken from: Page Not Found - JA Show
I believe the evidence is strong though that Sartre professed to be an atheist. Here is a education website's information below:
"Jean Paul Sartre was a well known French philosopher who lived from 1905-1980. His thought was influenced heavily by philosophers Heidigger and Husserl. He became one of the early proponents of existentialism, which emphasizes among other things, the ultimacy of human freedom. He considered himself an atheist existentialist (as opposed to a Christian existentialist) and eventually included Marxism and humanism in his philosophy."
taken from: Service Down
First off, Sarte may or may not have had his doubts, and even considered the possibility of god. However, his personal beliefs and doubts are just that, his personal beliefs and doubts. You seem to be making the fallacy of exprapolating a generalization from a single anecdotal quotation. I am sure if you read his works further, you would also find volumes of quotes of how he doesn't believe in the existance of god. Of course, neither matters, since the IDEA of atheism does exists. The fact that you understand what the term atheism means suggests that even you are evidence that Atheism exists as a belief. If this was not so, you could hardly try and refute the belief. Additionally, the link you provided ( the first of these two) is from an apologetic web site, which tries to make the same poor arguement that you are. Of course, they argue from an "unimpeachable authority" far worse than personal testimony, the bible. The entire article tries to use biblical quotes as evidence. That is why I critiqued your use of apologetics, because their arguement is as logically faulty and full of blind assumptions as yours. With that down, we are left with your assertion
that athiests don't exist. Let us continue.
I realize that a true materialist would have no incentive to become a martyr. At the same time the lack of materialist martyrs does raise the question on whether or not professed atheists truly believe there is no God and I do find Sartre's testimony revealing (Sartre was the most famous professed atheist in the the 20th century). I would also say it appears that the Christians have afforded more tolerance to the atheist when they have been in power if one looks at history (read the history of North Korea, Soviet Union, China, Eastern Europe, etc I also cite: http://www.persecution.com.au/news/allarticles.asp and http://www.hope-of-israel.org/dobsonps.htm and http://united-states.asinah.net/...cution_of_christians.html).
As a side note, I also offer the fact that some very prominent intellectuals of the skeptical persuasion have become Christians:
Bill Bright Memorial | Cru
As previously mentioned, persecution and martyrdom don't have anything to do with the existance of atheism or athiests. This has nothing to do with your proposition that atheism and atheists don't exist.
I also offer:
"Have you heard of Dr. Simon Greenleaf, who held the Royal Professorship of Law at Harvard? He was a skeptic, often mocking the Christians in his classes. One day they challenged him to take the three volumes he had written on the laws of legal evidence and apply them to the resurrection. After much persuasion he did that. In the proces he became a Christian and went on to write a book about his search. Greenleaf came to the conclusion that the resurrection of Jesus Christ is one of the best established events in history according to the laws of legal evidence."
taken from: Melonie Park Church
(I do not know if Greenleaf was a theist prior to this but it appears the gentleman in the previous link were professed atheist)
The fact that someone can change there mind doesn't change the fact that atheism exists. Additionally this is anecdotal evidence. I can just as easily find you people who were religious and became atheists, in fact there are several on this board.
Now if my hypothesis is correct regarding professed atheists being doubleminded we might expect professed atheists to have thoughts that are not conduscive to having a healthy thought life in terms of mental health. Is there any evidence that this may be the case? Let us look.
Your "hypothesis" is not only incorrect, riddled with logical fallacies as I have already pointed out. With a faulty premise, any arguements based on that false premise is also inccorect.
Here is a synopsis of Professor Vitz's data:
Atheists and Their Fathers
Access forbidden!
Here is sample excerpt of one of the above links:
"Anthony Flew is a philosopher who's an atheist and the son of a well-known English divine. At a party Flew beat on the floor exclaiming "I hate my father!"
Whether of not the group that Professor Vitz studied had bad relationships because of their fathers and because they were rebellious sons seems to me to be an open question. Plus I cannot say I am a strong believer in determinism (your environment determines your future) as I strongly believe in freewill (although your environment can influence you). Ultimately, men have the freedom to reject God or not reject God. Ultimately many societies are beginning to drift away from excessive determinism and demand personal accountability and I think this is a good thing.
Wow, what a load of caltrap. First off, the first link is another arguement from anecdotal evidence. More over, some of the subjects listed wern't even atheists! (ie Voltaire) Secondly, I am sure I can find christians that had problems with there fathers. This entire line of reasoning is bullshit, and you should know it. Also, there are plenty of atheists who had excellent relations with their parents (including their fathers). The second article is a rehash, and when read, supposes a viewpoint based on opinion not fact. He even gives an example that contradicts his own assumptions, and then goes "oh well". Did you actually read this stuff? Wow, talk about poorly written and illogical through the core. No wonder you post the links and just try and pull a few snippets out, since , in context, its easy to see what a TOTAL load of crap these links are.
Also, one must contend with the extensive meta-study done by the Mayo Clinic showing that there is a positive correlation between faith/faith practices and mental health. Here is a reference to the Mayo Clinics meta-study of 850 studies regarding faith (faith practices)/mental health:
Page Not Found - Site Help - Mayo Clinic
Now some have stated that there are weaknesses associated with meta-studies (statistical studies of the various studies to find significance). To those who assert that meta-studies are often unreliable and that the Mayo Clinic people are not competent to do a meta-study I would simply ask that you provide evidence that atheism is associated or provides superior mental health.
First off, this study has nothing to do with mental health, it has to do with physical health. Secondly, the article is discussing prayer effect, not personal faith. Finally, I think this exercerpt says it best:
Mayo Clinic researchers found that their study of intercessory prayer had no significant effect on patients’ medical outcomes after hospitalization in a coronary care unit.
Your whole arguement based on this article is crap, since you obviously didn't read the article or failed to note that it doesn't involve athiests or mental health.
Now I realize that psychology is not as rigorous a discipline as say physics. In fact, I cannot say I am a big fan of psychological counseling. For example, one must ask how effective the various 240 plus conflicting methodologies of counseling psychology are in changing man. Given the social disentegration of the USA post 1960 I think asserting psychology is a pablum for mankind ills would be hard to maintain (I am not saying that the 1950's were a "paradise on earth" and that I long for the 1950's. I am quite happy that God placed me at the time juncture he chose!). I personally believe that pschology is far more effective at diagnosing that people are mentally unstable than they are at changing men's behavior.
Ultimately, I believe that cognitive psychology can be used to increase man's ability to learn information but as a prescription to solve man's societal/personal problems it has failed (an example or pschology helping people would be when a cognitive psychologist showing people how to increase memory ability). The Bible states, "the heart of man is deceitfully wicked above all things. Who can understand it?" I think as a whole where psychologist, including Prof. Vitz who wrote a psychology of atheism, often fail is that they are entirely too deterministic and fail to consider human freedom sufficiently. A weakness I can see in Prof. Vitz's work for example is that he says that one of the reasons perhaps atheist become atheist is that they had a bad or non-existent relationship with their fathers and he offers evidence of this. As I stated before, Vitz's works begs the question was the reason why atheist had bad relationships with the fathers their fault. Were they cantankerous rebel children and their fathers had a hard time dealing with them. Who can really say? I do think that Vitz is too deterministic in that he says that atheism may be a result of bad father relationships and he neglects to say that perhaps they were just rebels who caused the bad relationships with their fathers. The truth may lie somewhere in between in that relationships are "two way streets".
A bunch of personal belief that has no bearing on the existance or non-existance of atheism and atheists. As for Vitz, I read your two links, and already commented on them. Driving on....
Here is some additional data that supports that professed materialists are doubleminded:
"Crick is also a fervent atheistic materialist, who propounds the particle story. In his autobiography, Crick says very candidly biologists must remind themselves daily that what they study was not created, it evolved; it was not designed, it evolved. Why do they have to remind themselves of that? Because otherwise, the facts which are staring them in the face and trying to get their attention might break through."
taken from: http://www.ldolphin.org/ntcreation.html
Here is the exact quote:
"Biologists must constantly keep in
mind that what they see was not designed, but rather evolved." (Crick
F.H.C., "What Mad Pursuit," 1990, p.138). "
taken from: http://www.asa3.org/archive/evolution/200006/0070.html
Well, the first quote is taken from an article that quite clearly indicates that the author is an apolgetic. Secondly, the quote makes an unsupported assertion that, "Because otherwise, the facts which are staring them in the face and trying to get their attention might break through." As for the quote mining of Crick, it should be obvious that the quote was pulled out of context. Quote mining is fun, but not much of an argument. Additionally, quote mining is often done to mispresent the author's opinion, which is a form of lying on the quoter's part. Of course, again, this has nothing to do with Atheism as a belief, or the existance of athiests.
Now I believe I have offered evidence that atheism very well may not really exist. At the very least, I would say that professed atheists certainly have not demonstrated that atheism exist. I would say that if professed atheist assert that atheism is a "lack of belief" and that atheism exist the burden of proof regarding their "lack of belief" is upon them. If a professed atheist takes isssue with my essay I would say please provide evidence that atheism exist. Now I would say that an absence of evidence does not always mean a evidence of absence but on the other hand I would have to say that professed atheist have not to my knowledge provided any evidence that atheism truly exist.
First off, having read your entire post so far, you have provided ZERO evidence for the non-existance of atheists or athiesm. Secondly, it requires no more evidence to support the existance of atheist and atheism than it doesnt to support the existance of muslims, hindus, christians, communists, etc. It isn't incumbent on me to prove my existance. I already pointed out early that you recognize that athiesim exists, otherwise you wouldn't be able to argue against it. So, all that is left is proving that athiests don't exist, which you have failed to do. Additionally, your standards for establishing what beliefs are held by individuals are absurd. (Would you apply this same standard to your own beliefs? No, and neither would I. The only reason I can seem to find for your disregard of atheists beliefs and personal existance seems to be because you find the idea personally distasteful. I could be wrong though, since you are the only one who can say what you are thinking.)
Lastly, as a Christian I do believe that people can be spiritually deceived. So atheism may very well exist in some professed atheists. On the other hand, again it is equally true that there is no solid/empirical proof that it does.
On the other hand, I happen to think that there is solid/empirical truth that stupidity does exist. Since we both understand the idea of athiesm, it exists. You have provided no proof that athiests don't exist. Finally, you even admit to the possibility that they exist. Why do you even continue to argue your assertion when everything you have said contradicts your own proposition. You are so close to repuditaing your own assertion completely!!! Come on, take that next step .......
The rest of your postings deal neither with your assertion that atheism or atheists exists. As such, I will just ingore that portion as ramblings to make your post longer. After this long haul, I think it becomes obvious that you never support your orignal assertion. Furthermore, you even provided enough evidence from your own discussion that you at least understand what the idea of athiesm entails. You even concede the possibility they exist. All we are left with is the fact that you choose not to accept either. My question to you is why?
I have several ideas. The first is that you find atheism and athiests so distasteful because they don't accept a basic tenent of your worldview, and that it is easier for you to deal with them by pretending they don't exist. The other option is that your arguement, no matter how poor, if a form of witnessing for you. You are hoping to bring the lost sheep into the fold, and help save their souls. However, since I am not you, I have no clue to what you believe. If you care to illuminate us, I promise not to say your wrong, and tell you what you really think.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by kendemyer, posted 09-01-2004 8:12 PM kendemyer has not replied

  
mikehager
Member (Idle past 6466 days)
Posts: 534
Joined: 09-02-2004


Message 147 of 297 (139438)
09-03-2004 1:15 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by kendemyer
09-03-2004 12:08 AM


Re: The Black Knight
Still you avoid the question. How surprising.
You're absolutely correct. The Monty Python knight is reminiscent of you and I commend you on your perception in realizing it. Your crippled argument hops around on one leg, gamely ignoring the fact that it is soundly defeated. Now that you have achieved this self knowledge, lets see what you can do with it.
I repeat, your response to the simple syllogism is invalid on it's face. It is factually incorrect and in making it, you demonstrate an incredible arrogance and short sightedness.
Are you congenitally incapable of addressing a criticism, or just congenitally stupid?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by kendemyer, posted 09-03-2004 12:08 AM kendemyer has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 148 of 297 (139444)
09-03-2004 1:35 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by kendemyer
09-02-2004 3:04 PM


First, it is a time honored tradition in debate and in law that the burden of proof is upon the claimant.
And I have met that burden of proof; I have stated that I possess no belief in gods. Since atheism is the assertion that one has no belief in gods, that proves that I'm an atheist.
In the face of that evidence, you must now prove that you know more about what I believe than I do. You have not.
I would say that you, crashfrog provide a great piece of evidence for my assertion.
And I would say that my reaction is the reasonable outrage directed at you, who has the temerity to assert without proof that you know more about my beliefs than I do.
Ad hominem proves nothing, Ken.
Now I reasonably saw in the above comment an implied threat.
What threat? What do you think I can do to you? I don't even know you.
Paranoia is a sign of mental illness, Ken. Maybe you should get that checked out.
I rest my case.
So you concede, then, that I am an atheist?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by kendemyer, posted 09-02-2004 3:04 PM kendemyer has not replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 149 of 297 (139456)
09-03-2004 2:13 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by kendemyer
09-01-2004 11:39 PM


Re: to: darwin storm
An institutionalized psychotics shouts out "1+1 is two".
Is that statement false because of mental illness?
Spinoza died a happy man and he wasn't a christian.
I love going to the lala land of "quotes and opinions no logic or evidence required" with you. Its so freeing to just say stuff and not care If I make sense, thanks you for setting me free! We don't need no stinking logic or science, we can quote old books and have them mean whatever we wants.
Wheeeee, this is fun! I don't have to carefully consider my opponents arguments or anythings.. I think you have converted me to your faith!
It's so much easier than rationality!
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by kendemyer, posted 09-01-2004 11:39 PM kendemyer has not replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 150 of 297 (139460)
09-03-2004 2:20 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by kendemyer
09-02-2004 12:53 AM


Re: to: crashfrog
You never proved to me that you are an atheist and do not waver often.
Ken,
Do you exist?
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by kendemyer, posted 09-02-2004 12:53 AM kendemyer has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024