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Author Topic:   Faith
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 91 of 216 (139843)
09-04-2004 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by nator
09-03-2004 9:43 AM


If you hold to your original claim that because the odds are not 100% that this would happen that ANYTHING that could happen is going to happen REGARDLESS OF THE ODDS, then why don't you do the deed and see what happens?
Since your so smart, do I really need to explain the difference between the odds of something, and the idea of jumping off a bridge? The 2 are completely different, yet you still think that they have something to do with each other, for which you are famous for.
I wouldn't jump off that bridge if the odds were 1% that I would crush my skull. I don't play games with my life, which has nothing to do with discussing odds.
Do you or don't you believe that this is an extremely likely outcome?
No, I don't. Like I said the odds for me personally might be 0%. The only way to find out is to jump. So we won't find out my odds. This is what I'm telling you. This is why odds are sometimes not good scientific data, or a reason to believe in one thing or another.
We can say this with strong confidence that approaches 100%, but since we are not omnicient, we could be wrong that gravity is in effect. There could be another force that we don't know about which is affecting us that we haven't found yet, or may never find.
Thats why I said if no outside forces get involved.
Besides, you do know that there are several various competing theories of gravity, don't you, and that we don't really understand how it works very well?
Yes I do, because we don't know the exact weight of planet earth, we cannot nail down the gravitational constant.
Is there an element of faith in statistics, riverrat?
Is there an element of faith in probability figures?
Is there an element of faith in mathematics?
Since statistics are taken by and recorded by man, oh yea.
Just like church is run by man, thats why I don't really care for religion, but that doesn't stop me from going to church.
Is probability an odd? lmao, Faith in it?
You see all those people fleeing Florida because of a probabilty forcast? No thats faith.
Mathematics? I used to think that math was a constant. 2+2will always =4. I have seen thinking contrary to that in this forum. So I am starting to wonder if math is a constant. I realize that some unproven mathematical formulas might require an element of faith to believe in, but maybe the easy stuff, or proven stuff will never change, as long as 1=1. If you can theorize when 1 does not = 1 then please enlighten me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by nator, posted 09-03-2004 9:43 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by happy_atheist, posted 09-04-2004 11:40 AM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 107 by nator, posted 09-05-2004 9:37 AM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 108 by nator, posted 09-05-2004 9:40 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 92 of 216 (139846)
09-04-2004 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by happy_atheist
09-03-2004 12:13 PM


I don't see that. I don't think that it its clear. I see the passion that people belive in science and all its predicted outcomes. People in here even devote their lives to studying it. People in here, whether they would admit it or not would use certain aspects of science to not believe in God.
They have faith even if they think they don't.
Just because they wouldn't admit it, doen't mean they don't have faith.
Many people are trying to prove to me all these things are so close to being 100% that we should believe in them.
Read that last scentence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by happy_atheist, posted 09-03-2004 12:13 PM happy_atheist has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by nator, posted 09-05-2004 9:51 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 93 of 216 (139847)
09-04-2004 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by happy_atheist
09-03-2004 2:49 PM


Re: Are there things outside those that can be tested?
I don't have a problem with that, if that is the complete truth.
Just because a person is a scientist, doesn't make him 100% honest.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by happy_atheist, posted 09-03-2004 2:49 PM happy_atheist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by happy_atheist, posted 09-04-2004 11:45 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
happy_atheist
Member (Idle past 4913 days)
Posts: 326
Joined: 08-21-2004


Message 94 of 216 (139854)
09-04-2004 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by riVeRraT
09-04-2004 11:13 AM


quote:
I wouldn't jump off that bridge if the odds were 1% that I would crush my skull. I don't play games with my life, which has nothing to do with discussing odds.
Of course you do, every single thing you do is playing games with your life as you put it. When you cross the street there is a chance you'll get run over. Even if you look both ways very carefully you might have missed something. When you eat food theres a chance you might have a fatal allergic reaction to something inside it. You weigh the odds and only do those things were you think it's an acceptable risk. Obviously jumping off a bridge would not be an acceptable risk (unless maybe you had a bungee rope attached to you, but some people aren't even happy with that).
This message has been edited by happy_atheist, 09-04-2004 10:41 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by riVeRraT, posted 09-04-2004 11:13 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by riVeRraT, posted 09-04-2004 1:39 PM happy_atheist has replied

  
happy_atheist
Member (Idle past 4913 days)
Posts: 326
Joined: 08-21-2004


Message 95 of 216 (139855)
09-04-2004 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by riVeRraT
09-04-2004 11:20 AM


Re: Are there things outside those that can be tested?
I know, not all scientists are honest. I read in a science magazine a story about a very respected young scientist who'd maded some astounding discoveries. It turned out he'd either altered or just plain made up the results. He wasn't at all honest. The thing is it doesn't require everyone to be honest for the scientific method to work. If someone else can't replicate your results then you'll be found out. Unless every single scientist is grouping together in a big conspiracy to make up all the results and keep everything consistent then dishonesty won't work.
If all the scientists WERE doing that though, science would be useless. Nothing useful could possibly come of it, no new technology would work. Since things made from scientific discoveries do actually work (this computer for example), then I think it's fair to say that the majority of scientists are honest enough

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by riVeRraT, posted 09-04-2004 11:20 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by riVeRraT, posted 09-04-2004 1:52 PM happy_atheist has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 96 of 216 (139870)
09-04-2004 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by happy_atheist
09-04-2004 11:40 AM


Right, which is why I do not accept things as fact no matter what the odds are.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by happy_atheist, posted 09-04-2004 11:40 AM happy_atheist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by happy_atheist, posted 09-04-2004 2:18 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 97 of 216 (139872)
09-04-2004 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by happy_atheist
09-04-2004 11:45 AM


Re: Are there things outside those that can be tested?
Right, but not only dishonesty can drive scientists to come up with wrong results.
It would seem nowadays that with the evidence for evolution being so strong that scientists would collect data and first see how it fits into an evolutionary model. If it doesn't fit or cannot be explained, then it would be put to the side until a later date when it could then be explained.
Also, our ignorance to many things can keep us from knowing the truth. Go back into history and see all the scientific theories that have been, and see how they have been changed. But at the time it was accepted. Now we can look back at certain things and laugh. So 300 years from now we might look back at certain things we accept now, and laugh.
I am not saying this will happen or not, but just that I won't let it be my God. I will accept what we know now as the best possible answers and use the science we now have to my benefit. But I will not accept it as fact.
I just got done watching the science channel and they did a survey of judging peoples faces to be trust worthy or not. It was the most ridiculus thing I have ever seen, and they would accept it as scientific data is just plain stupid. I totally did not agree with the results, and that would be because we all have different way of looking at things. There is just way to many variables involved for a survey like that to ever be accurate or be of any use. But that didn't stop them from trying it, and then publishing the results on TV, then the general public would look at it and say, "oh". Its science media. To me all media sucks. It takes a lot for me to accept something as being true, as I have seen too much lies. The only thing to me that remains true is God's word, and his promises. I can look into someones eye's and the Holy Spirit would tell me right away if this person is trust worthy or not. I do not need to judge him by his/her features.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by happy_atheist, posted 09-04-2004 11:45 AM happy_atheist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by happy_atheist, posted 09-04-2004 2:23 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
happy_atheist
Member (Idle past 4913 days)
Posts: 326
Joined: 08-21-2004


Message 98 of 216 (139875)
09-04-2004 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by riVeRraT
09-04-2004 1:39 PM


Thats fine, no theory is ever meant to be taken as 100% true. If it was it would become dogma and unchanging, which would be a bad thing. In science theories are never facts. Facts are plain observations. It is a fact that massive bodies have an attractive force because this is observed. General Relativity is not a fact though, its a theory that is used to explain the facts.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by riVeRraT, posted 09-04-2004 1:39 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by riVeRraT, posted 09-04-2004 2:28 PM happy_atheist has replied

  
happy_atheist
Member (Idle past 4913 days)
Posts: 326
Joined: 08-21-2004


Message 99 of 216 (139877)
09-04-2004 2:23 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by riVeRraT
09-04-2004 1:52 PM


Re: Are there things outside those that can be tested?
Well I have no idea of the validity of the results in that experiment so I won't comment on them. I don't doubt that psychology is a very hard place to get conclusive data though. I'm sure we'd have to look into the actual research papers to see just how valid or invalid the results are though, the media has a way of slanting things one way or the other.
quote:
The only thing to me that remains true is God's word, and his promises. I can look into someones eye's and the Holy Spirit would tell me right away if this person is trust worthy or not. I do not need to judge him by his/her features.
If you do not need to judge someone by their features then you do not need to see them (or have ever met them) to determine if they're lying or not. In fact you should be able to tell me if someone is trustworthy or not without knowing anything about them at all.
This message has been edited by happy_atheist, 09-04-2004 01:25 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by riVeRraT, posted 09-04-2004 1:52 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by riVeRraT, posted 09-04-2004 2:36 PM happy_atheist has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 100 of 216 (139878)
09-04-2004 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by happy_atheist
09-04-2004 2:18 PM


Judging by your post count, you are new here. But as you go along and read, people will argue that based on a collective amount of evidences that it is so over welming, that evolution is fact.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by happy_atheist, posted 09-04-2004 2:18 PM happy_atheist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by happy_atheist, posted 09-04-2004 8:38 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 101 of 216 (139881)
09-04-2004 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by happy_atheist
09-04-2004 2:23 PM


Re: Are there things outside those that can be tested?
In fact you should be able to tell me if someone is trustworthy or not without knowing anything about them at all.
Yes, but I would have to meet them at least, and experience some sort of exchange with them, and then be able to judge if what they are saying is coming from a trust worthy source.
I wouldn't even try to judge someone I have never meet or had any dealings with, its not my place to. Also doing it over the internet doesn't seem to work, because its too easy to lie. Remember I need to see the persons eyes.
I could make a general assumption based on what a person writes, but I still wouldn't know if it was coming from their heart. This increases with the more writing that goes back and forth. I would judge by the short conversations that we had, that for the most part you seem trust worthy, and a realist. But that is only based on the actual words that were exchanged, not who you really are.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by happy_atheist, posted 09-04-2004 2:23 PM happy_atheist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by happy_atheist, posted 09-04-2004 8:44 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
happy_atheist
Member (Idle past 4913 days)
Posts: 326
Joined: 08-21-2004


Message 102 of 216 (139949)
09-04-2004 8:38 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by riVeRraT
09-04-2004 2:28 PM


I'm new at posting, but i've been reading the board for some time. Anyway, evolution is a fact in that it is observed to happen. The facts have a theory to explain them. It is exactly the same with gravity, gravity is observed to happen (therefore fact), and it has a theory that explains it. General Relativity is not a fact, it is a theory.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by riVeRraT, posted 09-04-2004 2:28 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by riVeRraT, posted 09-04-2004 8:50 PM happy_atheist has not replied

  
happy_atheist
Member (Idle past 4913 days)
Posts: 326
Joined: 08-21-2004


Message 103 of 216 (139950)
09-04-2004 8:44 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by riVeRraT
09-04-2004 2:36 PM


Re: Are there things outside those that can be tested?
Thanks, you seem trustworthy too. Maybe view the world very differently to me, but that makes it more interesting.
riVerRat writes:
Yes, but I would have to meet them at least, and experience some sort of exchange with them, and then be able to judge if what they are saying is coming from a trust worthy source.
What I don't understand is why you'd have to meet someone to tell if they're lieing if you're not actually using their features (eye contact, voice intonation etc). The only advantage I can see to meeting someone is that you'd get to see their features. Maybe i'm not getting what you meant though.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by riVeRraT, posted 09-04-2004 2:36 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by riVeRraT, posted 09-04-2004 8:48 PM happy_atheist has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 104 of 216 (139954)
09-04-2004 8:48 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by happy_atheist
09-04-2004 8:44 PM


Re: Are there things outside those that can be tested?
I said I would have to look into their eyes, and then ask the Holy Spirit if they were honest.
I use the Holy Spirit as a guide in my life at least 90% of the time. The other 10% would be me just being me, and usually screwing up or trying to take on the world, or something. Nothing too bad though.
I am human.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by happy_atheist, posted 09-04-2004 8:44 PM happy_atheist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by happy_atheist, posted 09-05-2004 8:05 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 105 of 216 (139955)
09-04-2004 8:50 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by happy_atheist
09-04-2004 8:38 PM


I agree with gravity, but I am not so sure I agree with evolution as being fact. I went thourgh a huge discussion about this, and it may be me just being stubborn, or I might just have a valid point.
Either way its not a lock that, that is how we got here. Even it was, I would be fine with that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by happy_atheist, posted 09-04-2004 8:38 PM happy_atheist has not replied

  
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