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Author Topic:   Faith
happy_atheist
Member (Idle past 4935 days)
Posts: 326
Joined: 08-21-2004


Message 106 of 216 (140042)
09-05-2004 8:05 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by riVeRraT
09-04-2004 8:48 PM


Re: Are there things outside those that can be tested?
Do you need to see the person before you can ask the holy spirit? If not then how do you know that the it's the holy spirit (which I assume knows more than what you know) and not just you evaluating the evidence you see? If you have to see the person i'd contend that it's more likely you that is evaluating the evidence you gain by seeing them. I'd imagine a lot of it is subconcious though, there's too much visual information to process it all conciously. We often see things without realising it I bet.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by riVeRraT, posted 09-04-2004 8:48 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by riVeRraT, posted 09-05-2004 4:14 PM happy_atheist has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2191 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 107 of 216 (140045)
09-05-2004 9:37 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by riVeRraT
09-04-2004 11:13 AM


quote:
Since your so smart, do I really need to explain the difference between the odds of something, and the idea of jumping off a bridge?
No. It seems you are having a very difficult time following an analogy. I really, at this point, am begining to wonder if you even understand what an analogy is.
This is what you said:
quote:
So I can't see justifying believeing in something because it is more likely to produce a certain result more than another thing. Because if it has odds that the results will change,then it will change, no matter the odds. Thats my personal observation.
How do you justify believing that you won't be killed by a ten ton boulder falling from the sky the moment you walk out of the front door?
After all, didn't you say that it is not justified to believe in something just because it is likely to produce a certain outcome?
quote:
The 2 are completely different, yet you still think that they have something to do with each other, for which you are famous for.
It's called an A-N-A-L-O-G-Y.
It is a hypotheticall exapmple which illustrates your statement taken through to it's logical conclusion.
quote:
I wouldn't jump off that bridge if the odds were 1% that I would crush my skull. I don't play games with my life, which has nothing to do with discussing odds.
LOLOLOL!!!
That's what a "game" like this would be about! Probability, odds, and your "chances" of surviving or not.
You just contradicted yourself, anyway.
You just said that you wouldn't jump off the overpass even if your chances of dying were only 1%, but all along we have been discussing your statement:
quote:
So I can't see justifying believeing in something because it is more likely to produce a certain result more than another thing. Because if it has odds that the results will change,then it will change, no matter the odds. Thats my personal observation.
So, according to you, the outcome of something happening, no matter the odds, will be different than what is likely to happen.
So why do you hesitate diving off that overpass, if the outcome will be different than you dying, no matter the odds?
Why bring up your 1% if the odds don't matter?
Do you or don't you believe that this is an extremely likely outcome?
quote:
No, I don't. Like I said the odds for me personally might be 0%. The only way to find out is to jump. So we won't find out my odds. This is what I'm telling you.
Upon what data do you base your idea that your odds are going to be different than anyone else's?
quote:
This is why odds are sometimes not good scientific data, or a reason to believe in one thing or another.
Um, all of science operates by using statistical analysis of data.
All of it. Including Astronomy, the branch of science you claim to be able to contribute to.
We can say this with strong confidence that approaches 100%, but since we are not omnicient, we could be wrong that gravity is in effect. There could be another force that we don't know about which is affecting us that we haven't found yet, or may never find.
quote:
Thats why I said if no outside forces get involved.
Please complete this sentence fragment.
I have no idea what you are trying to say.
Besides, you do know that there are several various competing theories of gravity, don't you, and that we don't really understand how it works very well?
quote:
Yes I do, because we don't know the exact weight of planet earth, we cannot nail down the gravitational constant.
That is incorrect.
Any Gravitational theory could handle diffent mass measurements for the Earth. The problems are with the theories themselves.
The theories try to explain how and why gravity works and how it related to the other physical forces. The versions we have are diffenent becausse there are some serious gaps in our understanding of these things.
Then why do you say that you could accept Gravitational Theory, and not Evolutionary Theory, even though we don't know much about Gravity, and there isn't even consensus on a single theory of Gravity? By contrast, we understand a great deal about how evolution works, there is an overarching Biological theory of Evolution which incorporates and unifies many disciplines and fields in the life sciences.
Is there an element of faith in statistics, riverrat?
Is there an element of faith in probability figures?
Is there an element of faith in mathematics?
quote:
Since statistics are taken by and recorded by man, oh yea.
You do understand that by "statistics" I am talking about the kind of statistical analysis that scientists do to interpret the data they gather in experiments.
Can you show me an example of religious-type faith from any statistics textbook?
An example from any math textbook would be OK, too.
quote:
You see all those people fleeing Florida because of a probabilty forcast? No thats faith.
What?
I don't need faith to know that a hurricane is extremely likely to hit Florida. I can see it. I can see the direction is moving.
No faith needed when there is physical evidence.
This message has been edited by schrafinator, 09-05-2004 10:36 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by riVeRraT, posted 09-04-2004 11:13 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by riVeRraT, posted 09-05-2004 4:36 PM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2191 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 108 of 216 (140046)
09-05-2004 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by riVeRraT
09-04-2004 11:13 AM


Riverrat, are the two concepts below exactly and precisely the same?
"faith in the unseen"
"trust from observation and experience"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by riVeRraT, posted 09-04-2004 11:13 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by jar, posted 09-05-2004 11:54 AM nator has replied
 Message 115 by riVeRraT, posted 09-05-2004 4:38 PM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2191 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 109 of 216 (140047)
09-05-2004 9:51 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by riVeRraT
09-04-2004 11:19 AM


Riverrat, it would be much easier to follow the conversation if you would include the relevant parts of the messages you were responding to so the reader wouldn't have to go back and forth to see what was said.
quote:
I don't see that.
How involved in the professional scientific world are you?
quote:
I don't think that it its clear. I see the passion that people belive in science and all its predicted outcomes. People in here even devote their lives to studying it. People in here, whether they would admit it or not would use certain aspects of science to not believe in God.
...and that would be their personal choice, just like it is your personal choice to reject science because of your religious views.
What you have continued to claim without basis is that the professional scientific community is using religious-type faith in some way in their professioal scientific work.
quote:
They have faith even if they think they don't.
You don't have faith even though you think you do.
quote:
Just because they wouldn't admit it, doen't mean they don't have faith.
Just because you won't stop fooling yourself, doesn't mean you really do have faith.
quote:
Many people are trying to prove to me all these things are so close to being 100% that we should believe in them.
No.
All these things which are very well supported by evidence are to be trusted, because it would be perverse and unreasonable to not give them provisional acceptance.
Just as it is perverse and unreasonable to not provisionally accept that the Earth is round, it is unreasonable and perverse to not provisionally accept that alelle frequesncies in populations change over time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by riVeRraT, posted 09-04-2004 11:19 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by riVeRraT, posted 09-05-2004 4:55 PM nator has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 110 of 216 (140060)
09-05-2004 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by nator
09-05-2004 9:40 AM


Good Luck
I've been trying to get RR to discriminate between Confidence and Faith for some time with no success.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by nator, posted 09-05-2004 9:40 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by nator, posted 09-05-2004 11:57 AM jar has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2191 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 111 of 216 (140062)
09-05-2004 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by jar
09-05-2004 11:54 AM


Re: Good Luck
Yeah, I'm that optimistic.
Or I'm a bulldog.
One or the other.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by jar, posted 09-05-2004 11:54 AM jar has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 437 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 112 of 216 (140106)
09-05-2004 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by happy_atheist
09-05-2004 8:05 AM


Re: Are there things outside those that can be tested?
Actually, no I don't need to see the person. But on the internet, I would never really be able to tell if the person was lying, so it would be pointless to even try.
But the truth knows the truth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by happy_atheist, posted 09-05-2004 8:05 AM happy_atheist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by happy_atheist, posted 09-05-2004 4:19 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
happy_atheist
Member (Idle past 4935 days)
Posts: 326
Joined: 08-21-2004


Message 113 of 216 (140110)
09-05-2004 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by riVeRraT
09-05-2004 4:14 PM


Re: Are there things outside those that can be tested?
What is it that you DO need to be able to tell if a person is lying then?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by riVeRraT, posted 09-05-2004 4:14 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by riVeRraT, posted 09-05-2004 5:03 PM happy_atheist has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 437 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 114 of 216 (140114)
09-05-2004 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by nator
09-05-2004 9:37 AM


No. It seems you are having a very difficult time following an analogy. I really, at this point, am begining to wonder if you even understand what an analogy is.
When I see analgy's that make sense, then I will accept them.
The way you analogize, its no wonder you think the way you do.
You seem to thin if I jump off the bridge, that it would make some kind of difference in the actual odds.
I'm telling you, that you cannot figure out the odds, not even by jumping off.
How do you justify believing that you won't be killed by a ten ton boulder falling from the sky the moment you walk out of the front door?
My point is, what does that have to do with the price of milk?
After all, didn't you say that it is not justified to believe in something just because it is likely to produce a certain outcome?
Unless it was 100% proven, than I wouldn't have to "believe" in it.
I believe Happy Atheist is saying the same thing I am in different words, but you pick on me because I am the Christian?
It's called an A-N-A-L-O-G-Y.
Your ANALOGY is a scewd.
It is a hypotheticall exapmple which illustrates your statement taken through to it's logical conclusion.
That would be cool, but you like to compare apples to oranges.
Your saying because there is a high chance that my head will get crushed after jumping off a bridge, that I should accept all science.
You just said that you wouldn't jump off the overpass even if your chances of dying were only 1%, but all along we have been discussing your statement:
Which is why I take science for what its worth, and its not my God.
Understand?
So, according to you, the outcome of something happening, no matter the odds, will be different than what is likely to happen.
You see, thats not what I said. I said if the odds are that it will change, then it will eventually change. It's murphy's law.
What makes one weeks lotto have winners of several, and the next weeks not have any? It cannot be explained by odds. You can attempt to, but it has no bearing on the actual outcome of a given situation. So I cannot justify believing in something based on the odds.
Why bring up your 1% if the odds don't matter?
Because unlike you, I do not claim to know the odds, only that they will change.
Upon what data do you base your idea that your odds are going to be different than anyone else's?
The FACT that some people would die, while others would live. Isn't that evidence that odds are person specific? But I guess it doesn't fit into the sceitific model you have in your head already, and you are not being unbiased in your thinking process. Therefor you are not scientific, and science is your faith.
Um, all of science operates by using statistical analysis of data.
All of it. Including Astronomy, the branch of science you claim to be able to contribute to.
Lights on but no-ones home?
Thats what I'm telling you, that is why I take science for what it is worth, and it is not my God. That doesn't stop me from enjoying science, which I Love, just not as much as God.
Please complete this sentence fragment.
I have no idea what you are trying to say.
I guess not, am I losing you?
Go back a few posts and read. I said that gravity would have an affect, if it was in effect, and no outside forces were involved. But then you said what if an outside force was involved, so you completely missed my point.
Then why do you say that you could accept Gravitational Theory, and not Evolutionary Theory, even though we don't know much about Gravity, and there isn't even consensus on a single theory of Gravity? By contrast, we understand a great deal about how evolution works, there is an overarching Biological theory of Evolution which incorporates and unifies many disciplines and fields in the life sciences.
Because if I jump off a bridge I fall.
Now please, mutate yourself into a whale, so I can see evolution at work. If you do that, I'll jump off the bridge.
Can you show me an example of religious-type faith from any statistics textbook?
I am not comparing religion to science. I said it wasn't my religion, because I am right, science is not a religion, but some would appear to treat it as such. What is it you are really trying to say?
I don't need faith to know that a hurricane is extremely likely to hit Florida. I can see it. I can see the direction is moving.
So you never seen a hurricane change it's path at the last second?
Or weaken?
So many different things can happen, so its by faith that they are leaving. It's not a lock that it will happen, just like the rest of science.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by nator, posted 09-05-2004 9:37 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by nator, posted 09-05-2004 7:57 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 437 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 115 of 216 (140115)
09-05-2004 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by nator
09-05-2004 9:40 AM


There are 5 very different words there.
Whats your point?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by nator, posted 09-05-2004 9:40 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by nator, posted 09-05-2004 7:59 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 437 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 116 of 216 (140116)
09-05-2004 4:55 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by nator
09-05-2004 9:51 AM


How involved in the professional scientific world are you?
Professionally? Aside from the science I need to know to complete my tasks in my company, I am not a scientist at all.
So I am giving you a perspective from a person with half a brain that is not in the scientific community, and has to trust what all scientists say.
I did work in research labs for 11 years, but I wasn't doing the research, but I talked to a lot of the people there to try and learn as much as I can, because of my love for science.
In my work, I use chemistry, and geometry. I even invented trigonometry on my own out of need. I never learned it in school.
After years of folding 2 dimmensional shapes into 3 demmensional shapes, I came to a strange realization for 3 demmensional space, and was able to see trig cleary in my head.
To give you an idea of what I was learning, I watched research scientists develop "fake" blood, and use it in animals.
I watch them extract cells from a kidney and then separate them in a ceterfuge, then run them through a spectrograph, to analize if a new medicine was working. I fully understood what was going on, but I am not a scientist. Thats why I tell you I am not qualified to argue about evolution. I can ask question, and interject my opinion, but because I am Christian, it seems I am labeled. I wasn't Christian my whole life, only recently. I used to believe in evolution, and take it on faith, and even used it as an exuse to question God's exsistance, and the accuracy of the bible.
I hope you appreciate my honesty.
...and that would be their personal choice, just like it is your personal choice to reject science because of your religious views.
No no no and no. I do not reject science because of my religious views. I reject science because of science. I do not even actually reject it. I just take it for what its worth.
What you have continued to claim without basis is that the professional scientific community is using religious-type faith in some way in their professioal scientific work.
Based on conversations with scientists. Based on the passion by which you argue with me about it. By seeing if an evidence fits into a scientific model first, then if it doesn't, disregard it, or come up with some silly explaination. When people use it to not believe in God. By scientists falsifying data. When science is wrong (which is most of the time) yet they teach it as being so right, and the end all to everything.
You don't have faith even though you think you do.
Explain. I do not have faith that God exists. what are you talking about?
All these things which are very well supported by evidence are to be trusted, because it would be perverse and unreasonable to not give them provisional acceptance.
I'm sure every scientists throughout the generations, for the last 2000 years felt the same way about whatever they believed in too. To bad it keeps changing, and God doesn't.
Just as it is perverse and unreasonable to not provisionally accept that the Earth is round, it is unreasonable and perverse to not provisionally accept that alelle frequesncies in populations change over time.
There you go again with a bad analogy. Why should I trust that analogy? Go ahead, mutate into a whale. Take a week if you have to.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by nator, posted 09-05-2004 9:51 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by nator, posted 09-06-2004 3:26 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 437 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 117 of 216 (140118)
09-05-2004 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by happy_atheist
09-05-2004 4:19 PM


Re: Are there things outside those that can be tested?
Don't laugh, but I need to them to tell me the truth, should I ask them if they are lying.
I mean how else would I know?
I don't think you are lying about anything, am I right?
I do detect a emptyness in your heart though, nothing to major, just a gap that needs to be filled. Your name is Happy Atheist, but you are sad about something, theres a hole there somewhere. I keep seeing blackness, does that make any sense? Thats the picture the Holy Spirit gave me.
So now if you came back and said I'm fine, I could possibly detect if you were lying or not, but it would be pointless to argue about it. You don't have to respond to this if you don't want to. But if I'm right in what I feel, then it was from God, not me. I cannot detect these things on my own.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by happy_atheist, posted 09-05-2004 4:19 PM happy_atheist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by jar, posted 09-05-2004 5:10 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 121 by nator, posted 09-05-2004 8:00 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 122 by sidelined, posted 09-05-2004 8:17 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 123 by happy_atheist, posted 09-05-2004 8:28 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 137 by happy_atheist, posted 09-06-2004 10:15 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 118 of 216 (140121)
09-05-2004 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by riVeRraT
09-05-2004 5:03 PM


Re: Are there things outside those that can be tested?
Rat
I'm still waiting for you to discriminate between confidence and faith.
Can you explain the difference as you see them?
This message has been edited by jar, 09-05-2004 04:10 PM

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by riVeRraT, posted 09-05-2004 5:03 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by riVeRraT, posted 09-05-2004 10:16 PM jar has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2191 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 119 of 216 (140160)
09-05-2004 7:57 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by riVeRraT
09-05-2004 4:36 PM


Then why do you say that you could accept Gravitational Theory, and not Evolutionary Theory, even though we don't know much about Gravity, and there isn't even consensus on a single theory of Gravity? By contrast, we understand a great deal about how evolution works, there is an overarching Biological theory of Evolution which incorporates and unifies many disciplines and fields in the life sciences.
quote:
Because if I jump off a bridge I fall.
That is the EFFECT of gravity.
That is not gravitation THEORY.
The several competing THEORIES of gravity are filled with gaps and holes because we do not really understand gravity very well, but yet you accept it?
We understand Evolutionary theory very well, but you reject that theory.
If you want to reject it on religious grounds, fine, but so far you refuse to do so. Somehowe, you think that evolutionary theory is not good science, and so you reject it, even though it is much better supported and understood than any of the various theories of gravity.
quote:
Now please, mutate yourself into a whale, so I can see evolution at work.
Do you think that completely misrepresenting evolutionary theory is supposed to make some kind of impressive point?
It is only making you look foolish and childish.
Nowhere in evolutionary theory is it predicted that I can "mutate into a whale".
Evolution is the accumulation of changes of allele frequencies in populations over time.
Do you deny that this happens?
quote:
What makes one weeks lotto have winners of several, and the next weeks not have any? It cannot be explained by odds.
It is ENTIRELY explained by odds, riverrat!!!
The site below is a listing of software packages which can calculate the odds of various games of chance:
Formula Software for Statistics Mathematics Probability

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by riVeRraT, posted 09-05-2004 4:36 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by riVeRraT, posted 09-05-2004 10:26 PM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2191 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 120 of 216 (140162)
09-05-2004 7:59 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by riVeRraT
09-05-2004 4:38 PM


quote:
There are 5 very different words there.
Whats your point?
You know what the point is, stop being coy.
Answer the question, please.
Riverrat, are the two concepts below exactly and precisely the same?
"faith in the unseen"
"trust from observation and experience"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by riVeRraT, posted 09-05-2004 4:38 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by riVeRraT, posted 09-05-2004 10:27 PM nator has replied

  
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