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Author Topic:   Faith
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 121 of 216 (140163)
09-05-2004 8:00 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by riVeRraT
09-05-2004 5:03 PM


Re: Are there things outside those that can be tested?
I guess God told you I was a lesbian before, eh riverrat?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by riVeRraT, posted 09-05-2004 5:03 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by riVeRraT, posted 09-05-2004 10:30 PM nator has not replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 122 of 216 (140169)
09-05-2004 8:17 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by riVeRraT
09-05-2004 5:03 PM


Re: Are there things outside those that can be tested?
riVerRat
I don't think you are lying about anything, am I right?
I do detect a emptyness in your heart though, nothing to major, just a gap that needs to be filled. Your name is Happy Atheist, but you are sad about something, theres a hole there somewhere. I keep seeing blackness, does that make any sense? Thats the picture the Holy Spirit gave me.
Why would you ask H.A. to confirm what the Holy Spirit told you was true? Either it is a definite communication from the holy spirit {in which case there is no need to confirm}or you need to confirm because you have no real idea.You are asking him to confirm that which you claim to know already.If you really want to impress him with your so-called talk with the Holy Spirit be specific and tell him why he has blackness,a hole, as you say rather than being vague. Tell him exactly the thing that is represented by this blackness so it is something he can be certain was not B.S. on your part.
I will put money on your inability to do so.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by riVeRraT, posted 09-05-2004 5:03 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by riVeRraT, posted 09-05-2004 10:34 PM sidelined has not replied

  
happy_atheist
Member (Idle past 4913 days)
Posts: 326
Joined: 08-21-2004


Message 123 of 216 (140172)
09-05-2004 8:28 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by riVeRraT
09-05-2004 5:03 PM


Re: Are there things outside those that can be tested?
normally i'd have answered this straight away, but I didn't see it till now and sidelined has asked you a question about it so i'll give you a while to reply to that before i answer it. I've no problems with answering it fully btw.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by riVeRraT, posted 09-05-2004 5:03 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by sidelined, posted 09-05-2004 9:06 PM happy_atheist has replied
 Message 131 by riVeRraT, posted 09-05-2004 10:35 PM happy_atheist has not replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 124 of 216 (140176)
09-05-2004 9:06 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by happy_atheist
09-05-2004 8:28 PM


Re: Are there things outside those that can be tested?
happy_atheist
Sorry to intrude H.A. I will try to restrain myself in the future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by happy_atheist, posted 09-05-2004 8:28 PM happy_atheist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by happy_atheist, posted 09-06-2004 10:08 AM sidelined has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 125 of 216 (140187)
09-05-2004 10:16 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by jar
09-05-2004 5:10 PM


Re: Are there things outside those that can be tested?
Faith is not an on/off switch. It can be attained in levels. Thats why you can say I have little faith, or a lot of faith. Confidence
is another way to describe faith. If you say you are confident, then you are saying that you FEEL that something would happen or not.
Or confidence is a desciption of trust. It depends how you use the word.
So using the first description, I would say confidence describes a strong faith, or belief in something. There doesn't have to be any proof that any such thing would actually happen or not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by jar, posted 09-05-2004 5:10 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by jar, posted 09-05-2004 10:19 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 126 of 216 (140188)
09-05-2004 10:19 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by riVeRraT
09-05-2004 10:16 PM


Re: Are there things outside those that can be tested?
Then I see little reason to continue this conversation.
Bye.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by riVeRraT, posted 09-05-2004 10:16 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by riVeRraT, posted 09-05-2004 10:36 PM jar has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 127 of 216 (140190)
09-05-2004 10:26 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by nator
09-05-2004 7:57 PM


Right, the fact that we fall is cleary obvious that gravity exists under certain conditions. Doesn't matter what the theory says.
Do you think that completely misrepresenting evolutionary theory is supposed to make some kind of impressive point
Why not? you seem to think if I jump off a bridge, that all of science is correct. I was trying to relate to you on your level of thinking.
Nowhere in evolutionary theory is it predicted that I can "mutate into a whale".
Of course it is. You just can't prove that. If we were in full control of evolution, it would be possible. The fact that you think its not, could mean that evolution doesn't actually exist.
We could theortically mutate you into a whale, over time given the right natural selections. Why do you think you can't? Your the evolutionist.
Evolution is the accumulation of changes of allele frequencies in populations over time.
Do you deny that this happens?
I do not know enough about it, to give a qualified answer. I also have not witnessed this for myself, so I would be taking other peoples words that it happens. Also whether this change in allele frequencies actually changes one species into another remains to be seen. Is that acceptable?
It is ENTIRELY explained by odds, riverrat!!!
The site below is a listing of software packages which can calculate the odds of various games of chance:
Odds would say that its 1,000,000 to 1. Which is a theory. That doesn't mean that every 1,000,000 tickets sold there would be a winner. There might be 5, 10, 20 or none. How can the odds explain this, and what use would those odds really be. If I am destine to be the winner, then my personal odds are 1-1.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by nator, posted 09-05-2004 7:57 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by nator, posted 09-06-2004 2:03 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 128 of 216 (140191)
09-05-2004 10:27 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by nator
09-05-2004 7:59 PM


Well my faith in God, would come from the second choice, regardless of any silly little objective test.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by nator, posted 09-05-2004 7:59 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by nator, posted 09-06-2004 2:18 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 129 of 216 (140192)
09-05-2004 10:30 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by nator
09-05-2004 8:00 PM


Re: Are there things outside those that can be tested?
No, he didn't silly, I was entertaining you. I never claimed that you actually were a lesbian. Besides you might be, you just don't know it yet.
Whether you are a lesbian or not, had no revelance on what we were talking about. I was merely carrying on a conversation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by nator, posted 09-05-2004 8:00 PM nator has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 130 of 216 (140193)
09-05-2004 10:34 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by sidelined
09-05-2004 8:17 PM


Re: Are there things outside those that can be tested?
I did say, that it didn't require an answer. Anything from the Holy Spirit is for him, and him alone. Unfortunatly it is part of the conversation, and others got to read it. I would hope that others would take it as untrue, unless he so chooses to confirm it.
Inability to do so? Its not my ability that gave me that thought to begin with.
Yes I am completely inable to do so. So now use that to not believe in God, ok?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by sidelined, posted 09-05-2004 8:17 PM sidelined has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 131 of 216 (140194)
09-05-2004 10:35 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by happy_atheist
09-05-2004 8:28 PM


Re: Are there things outside those that can be tested?
Its ok, really. I am treading on dangerous ground here. I am sorry.
You don't have to answer.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by happy_atheist, posted 09-05-2004 8:28 PM happy_atheist has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 132 of 216 (140195)
09-05-2004 10:36 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by jar
09-05-2004 10:19 PM


Re: Are there things outside those that can be tested?
Why you think there is a difference?
Go read a dictionary.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by jar, posted 09-05-2004 10:19 PM jar has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 133 of 216 (140232)
09-06-2004 2:03 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by riVeRraT
09-05-2004 10:26 PM


quote:
Right, the fact that we fall is cleary obvious that gravity exists under certain conditions. Doesn't matter what the theory says.
NO. The fact that we fall is only an observation. The theory behind this falling, that it is a side effect of a force that not only makes us fall off of bridges but also holds planets in orbit and influences the evolution of stars, is not apparent at all, and it took great minds, starting with Newton and continuing to the present day, to start to make sense of all of this. The fact that we can simply call falling "gravity" is our privilege of growing up in a time when great minds have started to figure this out for us.
Do you think that completely misrepresenting evolutionary theory is supposed to make some kind of impressive point?
quote:
Why not? you seem to think if I jump off a bridge, that all of science is correct. I was trying to relate to you on your level of thinking.
Riverrat, I want you to STOP repeating this false representation of what I am saying.
Since you seem to want to be beaten over the head with your own statements:
quote:
So I can't see justifying believeing in something because it is more likely to produce a certain result more than another thing. Because if it has odds that the results will change,then it will change, no matter the odds. Thats my personal observation.
Do you want to change this statement in any way, or retract it? Because, as it's written, it is ridiculous and nonsensical.
Nowhere in evolutionary theory is it predicted that I can "mutate into a whale".
quote:
Of course it is. You just can't prove that.
No, it isn't, and yes, I can provide evidence of my claim.
That you think it is constitutes example #295 that you don't understand evolutionary theory.
1) Any mutations manifested in me as an individual are already fixed in my genome.
2) Evolution is the change in the alelle frequencies in populations of organisms over generations. You know, that whole reproduction and selection thing.
3) Just to be clear, evolution doesn't happen to individuals. Evolution happens in populations. Got it?
That is what evolution proposes. The false cartoon of Evolutionary Biology you draw is much like a bad sequel to "The Fly".
quote:
If we were in full control of evolution, it would be possible. The fact that you think its not, could mean that evolution doesn't actually exist.
No, the fact that I think it's not is because I understand how evolution works and you don't.
quote:
We could theortically mutate you into a whale, over time given the right natural selections. Why do you think you can't? Your the evolutionist.
No, individuals DO NOT EVOLVE, populations do.
Evolution is the accumulation of changes of allele frequencies in populations over time.
Do you deny that this happens?
quote:
I do not know enough about it, to give a qualified answer.
Then you have no comprehention of the most basic, simple mechanisms involved in Evolutionary Theory.
I find it telling and unfortunate that you vehemently deny that which you have no understanding of.
Why don't you study and understand the following links, and then we can discuss any issues you have in one of the Evolution threads, or you can begin a new one.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-definition.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-intro-to-biology.html
Five Major Misconceptions about Evolution
If you love science as much as you say you do, don't you think that you should study and understand at least the basics of the science of evolutionary Biology?
[qs]I also have not witnessed this for myself, so I would be taking other peoples words that it happens.[/quote]
You haven't seen asteroids. You have taken other people's word for it that those are rocks flying around. All you see are little points of light. Do you now reject the idea that asteroids exist?
quote:
Also whether this change in allele frequencies actually changes one species into another remains to be seen. Is that acceptable?
No, it's not acceptable.
We have directly observed one species actually changing into another species both in the lab and in the field.
We also have a lot of genetic evidence and fossil evidence that this has happened.
You do realize that all of the major Creation "science" organizations have eventually had to admit that speciation happens, right?
It is ENTIRELY explained by odds, riverrat!!!
The site below is a listing of software packages which can calculate the odds of various games of chance:
quote:
Odds would say that its 1,000,000 to 1. Which is a theory.
No, it is NOT a theory.
It is mathematics. It is axiomatic.
quote:
That doesn't mean that every 1,000,000 tickets sold there would be a winner.
Exactly....as predicted by the mathematical statistical formulae.
quote:
There might be 5, 10, 20 or none. How can the odds explain this,
This is precisely what the odds predicted by the statistical mathematics explain.
quote:
and what use would those odds really be.
The use of the statistical analysis/odds is so that the people who run the lottery and casinos can accurately predict how much money they will make from their games of chance.
Man, please get a basics statistics book and learn some of this stuff.
My friend used to say that the lottery was a tax on people who are bad at math.
quote:
If I am destine to be the winner, then my personal odds are 1-1.
Mathematics doesn't deal in destiny.
The behavior of the lottery is exactly and precisely predicted. We know exactly how often, based upon numbers of tickets sold, the chances that nobody will win, exactly how often one person will win, exactly how often two people will win, etc. This will not predict, however, which specific days those wins will happen.
I thought you said that mathematical statistics had an element of faith in them, but all I see is a bunch of math and a random number generator.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by riVeRraT, posted 09-05-2004 10:26 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by riVeRraT, posted 09-06-2004 10:57 AM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 134 of 216 (140235)
09-06-2004 2:18 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by riVeRraT
09-05-2004 10:27 PM


quote:
Well my faith in God, would come from the second choice, regardless of any silly little objective test.
Riverrat, where your faith comes from is not an answer to the question I asked.
I'll ask it again:
Riverrat, are the two concepts below exactly and precisely the same?
"faith in the unseen"
"trust from observation and experience"
Let me clarify.
When I say "trust from observation and experience", I am referring to objective tests.
When I say "faith in the unseen", I am referring to personal, subjective belief.
Are they exactly and precisely the same concept, or are they different in some way?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by riVeRraT, posted 09-05-2004 10:27 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by riVeRraT, posted 09-06-2004 11:00 AM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 135 of 216 (140258)
09-06-2004 3:26 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by riVeRraT
09-05-2004 4:55 PM


How involved in the professional scientific world are you?
quote:
Professionally? Aside from the science I need to know to complete my tasks in my company, I am not a scientist at all.
So I am giving you a perspective from a person with half a brain that is not in the scientific community, and has to trust what all scientists say.
I did work in research labs for 11 years, but I wasn't doing the research, but I talked to a lot of the people there to try and learn as much as I can, because of my love for science.
To give you an idea of what I was learning, I watched research scientists develop "fake" blood, and use it in animals.
I watch them extract cells from a kidney and then separate them in a ceterfuge, then run them through a spectrograph, to analize if a new medicine was working. I fully understood what was going on, but I am not a scientist. Thats why I tell you I am not qualified to argue about evolution. I can ask question, and interject my opinion, but because I am Christian, it seems I am labeled.
No.
It seems that because you claim things as true which are actually false that makes you a target.
quote:
I used to believe in evolution, and take it on faith,
Then you accepted it for the wrong reasons. Evolution stands on the evidence which supports it, not because people like you take it on faith.
Don't mistake the reasons you used to accept evolution with the reasons I and others here accept it. We have not made the mistake you did, and neither do most professional life scientists.
quote:
and even used it as an exuse to question God's exsistance,
If you didn't ever understand it and know about the evidence which supports it and only took it on faith, then you just used it as a substitute religion.
I am now understanding, I think, where you have gotten the idea that all of us and scientists believe in evolution as a religious faith; it's because you figure because you did this, then everybody who accepts evolution must have done this, too.
quote:
and the accuracy of the bible.
Well, most of recorded history contradicts the Bible, and the Bible itself is internally inconsistent in many places. Much of science does contradict a literal reading of the Bible.
quote:
I hope you appreciate my honesty.
Sure, I appreciate it. However, this doesn't mean that you get to make claims about the entire scientific community and what the publish in their professional journal articles if you don't really read them?
...and that would be their personal choice, just like it is your personal choice to reject science because of your religious views.
quote:
No no no and no. I do not reject science because of my religious views.
Sure you do.
Why don't you reject Gravitational theory, even though there are huge, gaping holes in our understanding, while you reject the ToE even though it is a much tighter, mush better understood and supported theory?
I can only conclude that you are singling out the ToE to reject because it contradicts a literal reading of the Bible.
quote:
I reject science because of science. I do not even actually reject it. I just take it for what its worth.
You aren't fooling anybody, riverrat. It is clear that you accept certain theories because they don't interfere with your religious views, and reject others because they do.
What you have continued to claim without basis is that the professional scientific community is using religious-type faith in some way in their professioal scientific work.
quote:
Based on conversations with scientists.
...which is not their professional scientific work.
quote:
Based on the passion by which you argue with me about it.
...which is not their professional scientific work.
quote:
By seeing if an evidence fits into a scientific model first, then if it doesn't, disregard it, or come up with some silly explaination.
I have already addressed and refuted this point, and you did not rebut. If you continue to repeat claims that have been addressed without offering any explanation, you will be in violation of the forum guidelines.
Anyway, why should a scientist consider an anomolous finding to be anything else than an anomoly if the previous million findings have suggested something else? IOW, should scientists constantly question the validity of the entire Germ Theory of Disease every time they can't figure out right away what is the cause of a particular disease?
quote:
When people use it to not believe in God.
...which is not their professional scientific work.
quote:
By scientists falsifying data.
You had better support this serious accusation with some evidence very quickly or retract and apologize.
You had better not be casually throwing around accusations of outright fraud without some evidence, or else you are stooping to the most dishonest, dirty, and immoral methods of maligning that which you don't like.
quote:
When science is wrong (which is most of the time)
Yep, all of those cancer cures are totally wrong. That vaccine stuff? Wrong. Predictions of eclipses and metoer showers? Completely wrong most of the time.
Yep, science is so wrong. Why do you love something so pathetically ineffective in figuring out the natural world again?
[qs]You don't have faith even though you think you do.[/quote]
quote:
Explain. I do not have faith that God exists. what are you talking about?
*sigh*
You had just made the amazingly arrogant statement that "Scientists have faith even though they don't think they do".
I simply turned it back upon you in order to illustrate the stupidity and arrogance of such a statement.
All these things which are very well supported by evidence are to be trusted, because it would be perverse and unreasonable to not give them provisional acceptance.
quote:
I'm sure every scientists throughout the generations, for the last 2000 years felt the same way about whatever they believed in too.
First of all, there were no scientists 2000 years ago.
Science, as a formal discipline, is only about 200 years old, and that is being very generous.
Science as an actual profession with awarded degrees is only about 100 years old.
quote:
To bad it keeps changing, and God doesn't.
NO!!!
It is science's GREATEST STRENGTH that is is able to CHANGE IN THE LIGHT OF NEW EVIDENCE.
Otherwise, how could we ever improve our understanding of anything?
Otherwise, how could we ever correct errors?
Otherwise, how could we ever learn?
Honestly, how can you say you love science when you don't seem to know the basics of scientific methodology?
Read about them here:
science - The Skeptic's Dictionary - Skepdic.com
Just as it is perverse and unreasonable to not provisionally accept that the Earth is round, it is unreasonable and perverse to not provisionally accept that alelle frequesncies in populations change over time.
quote:
There you go again with a bad analogy. Why should I trust that analogy?
Because the evidence which supports evolution is just as strong as the evidence that supports a sherical Earth.
quote:
Go ahead, mutate into a whale. Take a week if you have to.
I have already addressed this gross misrepresentation of evolutionary theory in another post.
I have got to say, riverrat, that rarely have I come across someone who claims to love science who is also so misinformed and uninformed about science as you.
Luckily, there is a remedy. Read. Study. Inform yourself. Learn.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by riVeRraT, posted 09-05-2004 4:55 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by riVeRraT, posted 09-06-2004 11:27 AM nator has replied

  
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