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Author Topic:   PROOF against evolution
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 1806
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 556 of 562 (138568)
08-31-2004 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 553 by yxifix
08-31-2004 4:12 PM


Re: Bump for vxifix
So... if extra skin and so these kind of "wings" were not "developed" at once, "partly-mutated" animal would naturally die... that's clear.

How is it clear? There is nothing to say that a "partly-mutated"1 organism would automatically die off and not pass on its genes.

For the flying squirrel example the extra skin growth could occur after the animal has reached sexual maturity. The genes for the extra skin could be passed on before the extra skin grows and possibly disadvantages the animal. In this example the mutation is overall neutral as it doesn't prevent animal from passing on its genes nor does it help the animal do the same.

Edited to add: The above is just a possible scenario. I'm not stating that is this is absoluelty positivly what happened. Also changed the wording of the last sentence to make it more clear.

It seems that you think mutations are only good or bad. Thats not the case; there are neutral mutations that don't offer advantages or disadvantages (hence their name).

1. I'm using your terminology here, there is no such thing as a "partly-mutated" organism.

This message has been edited by DrJones*, 08-31-2004 04:40 PM

This message has been edited by DrJones*, 08-31-2004 04:40 PM


*not an actual doctor
This message is a reply to:
 Message 553 by yxifix, posted 08-31-2004 4:12 PM yxifix has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 558 by Percy, posted 09-05-2004 11:49 AM DrJones* has not yet responded

jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 557 of 562 (138583)
08-31-2004 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 553 by yxifix
08-31-2004 4:12 PM


Sorry Percy
As Percy so rightly pointed out, I neglected to provide a link to the issue on insect wings. Please pardon me for falling into the same trap I warned of. I should have provided the link in my previous post.

Mea Culpa.

A short summary is that systems may have had other purposes originally. One good example is the insect wing beginning as a means of temperature control and only later evolving into a flight system.

Here is a link to SJ Gould's report pointing not just to the hypothesis, but experiments that tested that hypothesis.

The same could be true of feathers. Initially they may have served other function, display purposes, temperature control, protection or some yet unimagined purpose and only later evolved into flight surfaces.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 553 by yxifix, posted 08-31-2004 4:12 PM yxifix has not yet responded

Percy
Member
Posts: 18312
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 558 of 562 (140058)
09-05-2004 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 556 by DrJones*
08-31-2004 5:32 PM


Re: Bump for yxifix
Your avatar looks strangely similar to New Hampshire's state symbol, the Old Man in the Mountain. After years of attempted preservation, the Old Man collapsed a couple years ago, but here's a picture from its heyday next to your avatar:

   

And now, back to our topic. Yxifix?

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 556 by DrJones*, posted 08-31-2004 5:32 PM DrJones* has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 559 by nator, posted 09-05-2004 11:55 AM Percy has responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 250 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 559 of 562 (140061)
09-05-2004 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 558 by Percy
09-05-2004 11:49 AM


Re: Bump for yxifix
His avatar is a profile shot of Hellboy, Percy.

FYI


This message is a reply to:
 Message 558 by Percy, posted 09-05-2004 11:49 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 560 by Percy, posted 09-06-2004 10:49 AM nator has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 18312
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 560 of 562 (140300)
09-06-2004 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 559 by nator
09-05-2004 11:55 AM


Re: Bump for yxifix
I see that DrJones* has updated his avatar with a higher quality image. Concidentally we went to BlockBuster last night, and as we browsed I noticed the Hellboy movie.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 561 by DrJones*, posted 09-06-2004 5:52 PM Percy has not yet responded

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 1806
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 561 of 562 (140439)
09-06-2004 5:52 PM
Reply to: Message 560 by Percy
09-06-2004 10:49 AM


Re: Bump for yxifix
A bunch of off topic stuff

Schrafinator Not just a profile of Hellboy but a concept sketch by Mignola of Ron Perlman as Hellboy.

Percy If you haven't seen it already I suggest renting the movie. The dialouge gets clunky but the visuals are great, there are many shots that are like panels from the comic.

end of off topic

To continue with good/bad/neutral mutations:

I have a condition called keratoconus (www.kcenter.org). Its a deformation of the corneas leading to eventual blindness. I've had two cornea transplants to hopefully cure me (90% succes rate with transplants). The exact cause of this condition is not fully understood but there is a heriditary (ie: genetic) component. So is this an example of a good, bad or neutral mutation?

Answer: neutral. Keratocunos generally kicks in at puberty, its a gradual process so the individual wouldn't be immediatly blind. While in the long term, if left untreated, it would be a severe disadvantage to the individual in the short term it wouldn't do anything to stop the individual from reproducing and passing on it's genes. Thus the gene/s for it weren't weeded out in our ancestors and continue to float around in the gene pool today.

And because modern medicine has treatments for it I'll be able to survive long enough to reproduce and pass it on. Even if modern medicine couldn't treat it, in today's society a blind person is not as disadvantaged as she/he would be ~1000 years ago and would still have a decent chance of passing on their genes.

This message has been edited by DrJones*, 09-07-2004 02:57 PM


*not an actual doctor
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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joshua221 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 562 of 562 (140455)
09-06-2004 6:57 PM
Reply to: Message 561 by DrJones*
09-06-2004 5:52 PM


Re: Bump for yxifix
The movie was horrible but the comic I hear is amazing!

Oh yeah the comic hellboy looks cooler too!

This message has been edited by prophex, 09-06-2004 05:57 PM


"Wake up, O sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you."

Ephesians 5:14


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