Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9164 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,422 Year: 3,679/9,624 Month: 550/974 Week: 163/276 Day: 3/34 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Faith
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 437 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 186 of 216 (140499)
09-06-2004 8:24 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by happy_atheist
09-06-2004 6:29 PM


Plus Murphy's law.
I know its not a technical term, but they do use it, I know a few people in the industry. If it can happen it will, they have learn this through the scientific method of objective observation.
In other words, if the odds are 100 to 1 that something could happen within a given year, they would look at it and say its more likely that the odds will get beaten, and we will lose, so lets bump up the premiums to cover, just in case.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by happy_atheist, posted 09-06-2004 6:29 PM happy_atheist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by happy_atheist, posted 09-07-2004 10:44 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 437 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 187 of 216 (140500)
09-06-2004 8:30 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by lfen
09-06-2004 7:07 PM


I pretty much understood all that already.
But what you described to me happened in an individual. So the individual started it, and then a population came from it. The way schraff explains it, one would think that the population as a whole would evolve at the same time.
To me it is possible that once mutated, the individuals offspring can then make a new population, not that the whole population would evolve identical to one another. This is how I understand it.
So if this is true all DNA from a given population can be traced back to one individual. Do have this right?
Thanks for your time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by lfen, posted 09-06-2004 7:07 PM lfen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by lfen, posted 09-06-2004 9:33 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 437 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 188 of 216 (140501)
09-06-2004 8:34 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by lfen
09-06-2004 7:07 PM


Oh one other question. I'm sure you know about the bacteria in the petri dish evolving experiment. It seemed to me the way it was explained, that they evoloved on the spot, after the were developed, by exposing them to an attacking bacteria, and not during the development stage. The offspring did carry on the mutation.
I'm guessing the evolution between bacteria and humans is very different. Why is that, other than the obvious differences between humans and bacteria?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by lfen, posted 09-06-2004 7:07 PM lfen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by lfen, posted 09-06-2004 9:40 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 202 by happy_atheist, posted 09-07-2004 11:53 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 437 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 191 of 216 (140571)
09-07-2004 12:34 AM
Reply to: Message 189 by lfen
09-06-2004 9:33 PM


Quick qestion, so do we really know if mutations can stand the test of time? Is this proven? Other than the evidence of the fossil record, which shows changes in species that can easily be reconized as steps of evolution.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by lfen, posted 09-06-2004 9:33 PM lfen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 194 by lfen, posted 09-07-2004 1:15 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 437 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 192 of 216 (140572)
09-07-2004 12:36 AM
Reply to: Message 190 by lfen
09-06-2004 9:40 PM


RNA are the building blocks of DNA, a blueprint more or less?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by lfen, posted 09-06-2004 9:40 PM lfen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by lfen, posted 09-07-2004 1:09 AM riVeRraT has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 437 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 195 of 216 (140608)
09-07-2004 6:18 AM
Reply to: Message 194 by lfen
09-07-2004 1:15 AM


23
And thanks for all your time, but I pretty much understood all that already. Its when people start telling me that I don't know whats going on, then I start asking questions like the ones I asked you to make sure I do really understand.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by lfen, posted 09-07-2004 1:15 AM lfen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by lfen, posted 09-07-2004 11:43 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 437 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 203 of 216 (140715)
09-07-2004 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by happy_atheist
09-07-2004 10:44 AM


Hey, I know your young, but keep what I said in mind, and observe for the next 20 or so years. You might change your mind.
I understand what odds are supposed to be, but it doesn't always work out that way, which leads me to a deeper way of thinking about configuring odds.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by happy_atheist, posted 09-07-2004 10:44 AM happy_atheist has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 437 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 204 of 216 (140716)
09-07-2004 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by lfen
09-07-2004 11:43 AM


I am still learning, but for starters, and this doesn't mean I do not accept evolution, or accept creation.
Gaps in evolution, but now they say thats predicted, what a way out.
Bacteria flagellum, and how complex it is for such a simple form of life. Also how compelling it ressembles an electric motor designed by man.
Carbon dating, which gets less accurate the further you go back.
Also I just heard about evidence that supports a rapid cooling of the earth, like a day or so. Had to do with a radioisotope found in rock that shouldn't be there had the rock cooled over a long period of time.
Also, just because we mutate, does that mean we actually become another species? Or just a different form of our former selves. At what point to we grow feathers out of a natural selection need, or mutation? What determines that a feather would grow out of the body of any creature, because in has the need to fly? Sounds like designed evolution to me, or something else.
RNA templates, and the blueprint for life.
The cambrian explosion.
Those are just a few that raise questions in me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by lfen, posted 09-07-2004 11:43 AM lfen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by lfen, posted 09-07-2004 5:31 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 437 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 205 of 216 (140719)
09-07-2004 5:12 PM
Reply to: Message 202 by happy_atheist
09-07-2004 11:53 AM


Ok, I get it, but. How did it mutate? Out of neccesity? Or out of design? Obviously there is some kind of defense mechanism designed into bacteria. Built in surviveabilty. Plus that fact that not all of them mutated means something also. It might have to do with it, or by design, bacteria cannot defend itself completely otherwise it would be to strong and not balance out with the rest of nature.
Sidebar: I only say designed to make the conversation interesting, don't take me so literally. I am not dead set on that word, designed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by happy_atheist, posted 09-07-2004 11:53 AM happy_atheist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by happy_atheist, posted 09-07-2004 5:41 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 437 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 208 of 216 (140845)
09-07-2004 11:35 PM
Reply to: Message 206 by lfen
09-07-2004 5:31 PM


Yes yes, I agree with all that, but a question.
What God have you determined to be the one you believe in. Or if you don't have name, whats your description of God, and why do you not believe in any revealed religion?
You are also saying your sister is ignoring all that because she probably fears that if she accepts it, then she will have to give up her religion, because the 2 are conflicting. This has been my arguement all along.
I now feel as though we were created because I feel God spoke to me clearly and told me that. How it happened I do not know. But I can bet that most creationalist really don't care since God already told them. It was all the evolutionists that started complaining and saying and saying if you expect me to believe in God, then prove I was created. So yes creation science was then forced to appear, and it goes about its science trying to prove a theory about being created. I see that as no different than science trying to prove evolution all the time. Even though you say it is not, because that is not the scientific method. I hope that is true.
Having said all that, we may in the future find something out that could possibly can the whole ToE, and where will that leave many people? I know a lot of people in this forum won't agree with this, but I can bet you that if creation was proven, alot of athiest would come to know God. To deny this is to deny the truth.
So just what is your God if you don't mind me asking, I am very curious.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by lfen, posted 09-07-2004 5:31 PM lfen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 211 by lfen, posted 09-08-2004 2:40 AM riVeRraT has not replied
 Message 212 by lfen, posted 09-08-2004 3:03 AM riVeRraT has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 437 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 209 of 216 (140849)
09-07-2004 11:45 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by happy_atheist
09-07-2004 5:41 PM


All that happens is that a mutation occurs that purely by chance gives it some level of resistance to the phage without killing the bacteria in some other way.
Hold the phone, you think this is random? Is that 100% proven?
I don't see that as being random.
I just find it so hard to believe that a species can randomly mutate into something that has a better survivabilty rate by chance. then the mutations are successful, and hold out through natural selection.
It's like opps! I mutated, and just by chance, of all the possible combinations of mutations, this one is going to help me survive. because the enviroment around me has changed, so now I need to change to keep up, and a random mutation is going to keep my species alive.
How could it possibly be random?
Don't you think for one second, that something else might be going on there? And that we can't see everything yet?
I am really enjoying this thread, and this conversation. Sometimes when you hear things put to you differently it sparks a new way of looking at something.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by happy_atheist, posted 09-07-2004 5:41 PM happy_atheist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 210 by lfen, posted 09-08-2004 2:05 AM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 215 by happy_atheist, posted 09-08-2004 8:40 AM riVeRraT has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 437 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 214 of 216 (140898)
09-08-2004 6:30 AM
Reply to: Message 210 by lfen
09-08-2004 2:05 AM


Thanks.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by lfen, posted 09-08-2004 2:05 AM lfen has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024