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Author Topic:   What is supernatural?
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 121 of 138 (141857)
09-12-2004 7:47 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by jar
09-12-2004 7:46 PM


Let's wait until we explain them?
Works for me, but until then, will you agree that there's nothing we know to be supernatural, but plenty we know to be unexplained?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by jar, posted 09-12-2004 7:46 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by jar, posted 09-12-2004 7:49 PM crashfrog has replied
 Message 134 by Phat, posted 09-13-2004 4:30 PM crashfrog has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 122 of 138 (141860)
09-12-2004 7:49 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by crashfrog
09-12-2004 7:47 PM


No.
GOD is supernatural.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by crashfrog, posted 09-12-2004 7:47 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by crashfrog, posted 09-12-2004 7:50 PM jar has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 123 of 138 (141861)
09-12-2004 7:50 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by jar
09-12-2004 7:49 PM


GOD is supernatural.
Who?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by jar, posted 09-12-2004 7:49 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by jar, posted 09-12-2004 7:54 PM crashfrog has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 124 of 138 (141864)
09-12-2004 7:54 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by crashfrog
09-12-2004 7:50 PM


And there we part, amicably I hope.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by crashfrog, posted 09-12-2004 7:50 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by crashfrog, posted 09-12-2004 7:56 PM jar has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 125 of 138 (141867)
09-12-2004 7:56 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by jar
09-12-2004 7:54 PM


And there we part, amicably I hope.
Well, if what you mean is, we part because you can no longer use rational discussion to support your position, I guess we do. But we're still no closer to understanding what is meant by "supernatural".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by jar, posted 09-12-2004 7:54 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by jar, posted 09-12-2004 8:04 PM crashfrog has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 126 of 138 (141874)
09-12-2004 8:04 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by crashfrog
09-12-2004 7:56 PM


But we're still no closer to understanding what is meant by "supernatural".
But I think we all understand what supernatural is. It is something that can effect the world around us yet is beyond our capability to test.
I believe in it, you do not. It's as simple as that.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by crashfrog, posted 09-12-2004 7:56 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by crashfrog, posted 09-12-2004 8:07 PM jar has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 127 of 138 (141876)
09-12-2004 8:07 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by jar
09-12-2004 8:04 PM


It is something that can effect the world around us yet is beyond our capability to test.
But that's not the supernatural; the history of science shows us that.
That's simply the unexplained. Not the supernatural.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by jar, posted 09-12-2004 8:04 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by jar, posted 09-12-2004 8:09 PM crashfrog has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 128 of 138 (141879)
09-12-2004 8:09 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by crashfrog
09-12-2004 8:07 PM


GOD is supernatural.
But enough of this. Hang in there but I believe we have covered our positions fully.
Thank you for your consideration.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by crashfrog, posted 09-12-2004 8:07 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by crashfrog, posted 09-12-2004 8:11 PM jar has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 129 of 138 (141881)
09-12-2004 8:11 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by jar
09-12-2004 8:09 PM


GOD is supernatural.
How do you know? What leads you to put God in a different class than all the other things that we can't explain? (Leaving out for a minute that I believe that "God" is very well explained, of course.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by jar, posted 09-12-2004 8:09 PM jar has not replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 130 of 138 (141921)
09-12-2004 10:55 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by jar
09-12-2004 6:25 PM


jar
Super natural is a super set, not a subset.
True, but its effect is a subset.And that can be measured.So I suppose we could take beta decay as a example of an effect with no apparent cause, at least one that cannot be predicted.Is this the sort of event you would look for as evidemce of the supernatural?
The supernatural question is not HOW atoms hold together or the universe expand, but WHY?
But belief in a God does not answer the why.If a God actually existed and interacts with people on their level {physical} through thoughts or feelings then these are measureable since they are manifested on a physical level.The atoms are responding to what if not a physical agent.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by jar, posted 09-12-2004 6:25 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by jar, posted 09-12-2004 10:57 PM sidelined has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 131 of 138 (141922)
09-12-2004 10:57 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by sidelined
09-12-2004 10:55 PM


But belief in a God does not answer the why.If a God actually existed and interacts with people on their level {physical} through thoughts or feelings then these are measureable since they are manifested on a physical level.The atoms are responding to what if not a physical agent.
And how do you measure thoughts and feelings?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by sidelined, posted 09-12-2004 10:55 PM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by lfen, posted 09-12-2004 11:38 PM jar has not replied
 Message 137 by sidelined, posted 09-13-2004 11:38 PM jar has replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 132 of 138 (141928)
09-12-2004 11:38 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by jar
09-12-2004 10:57 PM


the nondual consciousness approach
Jar, Crash, and others in this discussion,
This dilemma in part motivates my interest in the nondual approaches of the east as in Buddhism, and Advaita Vedanta which was heavily influenced by Buddhism.
The Buddha did not use supernatural approaches to his insight. He used a subjective approach of examining the contents and function of his stream of consciousness.
I understand the appeal of the notion of consciousness as an emergent property. The nondual approach however sees consciousness as the substrate in a sense of the energy/matter space/time universe. This is the fertile Void of Zen, or the source or Godhead of Brahman in Hinduism, the Godhead in the thought of some Christian mystics.
It is not supernatural, yet it is neither matter, energy, space, or time. Well, the favorite sutra in Zen puts it "form is emptiness, emptiness is form".
But this approach differs from the Judeo Christian Muslim notion that God created the universe out of nothing as something separate from Itself. Science then studies matter/energy space/time as separate from consciousness, yet without consciousness there would be no science.
I am not offering a solution. I am saying that I find this the most promising direction of exploration. The supernatural to me is mystery with a small m, The Amazing Randi guy studies it very successfully I think. Consciousness to me is the most important Mystery. Something so intimate that it can be said to be us. Edwin Schroedinger said "consciousness is a singular for which there is no plural"[edit: I've got to find the exact quote, this is a paraphrase from memory]
Consciousness is not supernatural, maybe call it sub natural as in the Tibetan concept of the Ground Awareness, the source. Rather than the Sky God metaphor of supernatural, I prefer the notion of Lao Tzu where he says "the Tao gives birth to the ten thousand things". A maternal metaphor rather then the Judeo Christian paternal metaphor. It is not something outside of or above, it's something that we are in and it is within us, it is us, the universe.
lfen
This message has been edited by lfen, 09-12-2004 10:42 PM

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 Message 131 by jar, posted 09-12-2004 10:57 PM jar has not replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 133 of 138 (142094)
09-13-2004 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by crashfrog
09-11-2004 6:38 PM


If you cause an effect, as you're proposing God does, you become detectable. That is, after all, how we detect things - by the effects they cause.
So if I kick a football through your window, and you look out and no one is there, you can detect me? How do you know whether the gale force wind smashed your window or me?
If I put pebbles in the pond, can you detect me in the pond? Who's to say that they were put there naturally or I threw them?
If I kickstart my bike, can you detect me in the bike?
If God made something happen in the natural, could you detect him?
You're part of the same world as the motorcycle. You "transcend" nothing.
But my substitution for the motorcycle, is the natural. Everything in the universe, and the engine is it's workings. Can you detect me in the engine if I ride/kickstart it?
you can't have something that is both able to influence and be undetected. There's no such thing as an undetectable influence.
Can't? Even if that's true to human knowledge (limited) then God can have what he darn well wants, nothing is impossible to him. Remember, if he's clever enough to make this universe, then he's gonna have MORE than Crahsfrog's can's and cannots - and he sure as hell isn't going to be limited by what you say.
A stiff wind blows you sideways and stops you from falling off a cliff. How can you know whether God influenced the wind or not?
What you've just said is that there is no God because we cannot detect him. This is arrogance speaking. You are forgetting what I said, that nothing is impossible with God.
If I kick a football through your window - it leaves no detectable trace of my kicking it(cause). I cannot be detected.
Now forget "worlds"
My substitutions are this;
Motorbike; The universe
Me; God.
That is the analogy!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by crashfrog, posted 09-11-2004 6:38 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by crashfrog, posted 09-13-2004 5:35 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 134 of 138 (142097)
09-13-2004 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by crashfrog
09-12-2004 7:47 PM


crashfrog writes:
Works for me, but until then, will you agree that there's nothing we know to be supernatural, but plenty we know to be unexplained?
So we are to agree that the definition of supernatural is unexplained natural phenomena? OK.
Go find some genuine Christian (or other faiths,also) believers who have testimonies of how their lives were totally changed and of testimonies of miracles or encounters of an unexplained kind.
The sincerity of these people is genuine. They are not lying. I suppose that some who have seen U.F.O.s could be also tested genuine.
These testimonies would differ from the mental patient who saw the I.P.U. so this invalidates the claim that I.P.U. is the same as U.F.O. or Angelic manifestations.
My point is that we as yet do not have a definite natural explanation for authentic instances of changed lives and encounters with the unknown. Believers call it supernatural. You call it unexplained.
TomaTOE, ToMAHtoe.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by crashfrog, posted 09-12-2004 7:47 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by crashfrog, posted 09-13-2004 5:37 PM Phat has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 135 of 138 (142128)
09-13-2004 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by mike the wiz
09-13-2004 4:25 PM


So if I kick a football through your window, and you look out and no one is there, you can detect me?
If I start to detect a pattern of kicked footballs and broken windows, and I'm able to cross-reference that with the time you scheduled to use the field for practice, yes. Even if I never see you do it.
The football in my living room opens the door for me to detect you.
Who's to say that they were put there naturally or I threw them?
So, what you're saying is, God never does anything that couldn't have happened naturally? Then how do you know God does anything at all?
If God made something happen in the natural, could you detect him?
If God made something happen that would have happened anyway, what exactly did God do? That's like me trying to take credit for gravity.
Can you detect me in the engine if I ride/kickstart it?
Since the engine doesn't start until you start it, and nobody can start it but you because you have the ignition key, then yes, I can detect your presence from a kickstarted engine.
Even if that's true to human knowledge (limited) then God can have what he darn well wants, nothing is impossible to him.
Except that which cannot be. A thing cannot be something and it's opposite at the same time. Saying "well, God can do anything" when it's obvious God does nothing is no argument.
How can you know whether God influenced the wind or not?
I don't. I would conclude that the wind is natural, because I don't go around ascribing totally natural things to some supernatural Superman that nobody can detect.
You are forgetting what I said, that nothing is impossible with God.
But clearly, some things must be. Some things can't happen in the universe; that's a fundamental result of how the universe is.
If I kick a football through your window - it leaves no detectable trace of my kicking it(cause). I cannot be detected.
The football through my window is the trace, Mike.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by mike the wiz, posted 09-13-2004 4:25 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
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