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Author Topic:   Why I am creationist
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 1 of 210 (142201)
09-13-2004 10:04 PM


I am creationist because evolution is a theory to me, not a fact. I still think that "evidence" is not being looked at objectively, and that people "favour" evolution because some people fear of bibleGod being true.
1. Natural selection can be shown but I don't buy into the second mechanism of mutation.
2. I see no reason to believe that I came from a common ancestor.
3. I'm generally unconvinced by it all, and believe that evidence can also favour creation, and why not? The bible is true!
4. We are way above other animals in our "different ways" - look at what we do; art etc... languages.
5. People skit bibleGod and laugh and say "that's bull cos evo' happened"
6. I can do science like test gravity etc, and I also believe science is correct about facts, but theories, why should they be an absolute certainty when we cannot know what happened in the past. I don't buy into uniformatarianism.
And finally, evolutionists piss me off. The same guys who argue creation with me, argue against Christ. So I must conclude this evo thing is against bibleGod, and therefore against me. So stick evolution, it's bullony..
Edit; Do not take this post to heart if u r reading it for the first time, the explanation is given in the rest of the thread.
This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 09-15-2004 08:00 PM

Replies to this message:
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 Message 7 by ThingsChange, posted 09-13-2004 11:21 PM mike the wiz has not replied
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 Message 49 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 09-18-2004 8:15 PM mike the wiz has replied
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 2 of 210 (142211)
09-13-2004 10:13 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by mike the wiz
09-13-2004 10:04 PM


My bologna has a first name, it's O-S-C-A-R
My bologna has a second name, it's M-A-Y-E-R
Oh, I love to eat it everyday,
And if you ask me why I'll say. . .
'Cuz Oscar Mayer has a way. . .
With B-O-L-O-G-N-A.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by mike the wiz, posted 09-13-2004 10:04 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
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mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 3 of 210 (142220)
09-13-2004 10:22 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by jar
09-13-2004 10:13 PM


"Creation is true".

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 210 (142231)
09-13-2004 10:33 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by mike the wiz
09-13-2004 10:04 PM


quote:
And finally, evolutionists piss me off. The same guys who argue creation with me, argue against Christ. So I must conclude this evo thing is against bibleGod, and therefore against me. So stick evolution, it's bullony..
Yeah, I figured that out also. Sad Sapps.... jk

"Wake up, O sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you."
Ephesians 5:14

This message is a reply to:
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joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 210 (142232)
09-13-2004 10:33 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by jar
09-13-2004 10:13 PM


They spell it differently in the UK. DUH lol

"Wake up, O sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you."
Ephesians 5:14

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coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 476 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 6 of 210 (142233)
09-13-2004 10:38 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by mike the wiz
09-13-2004 10:04 PM


mtw writes:
4. We are way above other animals in our "different ways" - look at what we do; art etc... languages.
I imagine that a bat somewhere out there is telling his fellow bats how inferior humans are compared to them. Humans doesn't have natural radar like bats do... and they don't sleep upside down.
What's my point? How do you know what's "above"?

The Laminator
We are the bog. Resistance is voltage over current.
For goodness's sake, please vote Democrat this November!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by mike the wiz, posted 09-13-2004 10:04 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
ThingsChange
Member (Idle past 5925 days)
Posts: 315
From: Houston, Tejas (Mexican Colony)
Joined: 02-04-2004


Message 7 of 210 (142244)
09-13-2004 11:21 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by mike the wiz
09-13-2004 10:04 PM


Reasons for and against
mike the wiz writes:
I am creationist because ...
Interesting that you list all kinds of negative opinions of evolution, but no positive reasons for Christ based on faith.
I suspect that you do not have any reason to change belief, so you have no motivation to spend time to change your belief... a self-fulfilling prophesy. If it takes an effort to do more research, then there better be a good reason to take time away from more enjoyable and/or necessary things. Besides, why undo the feelings that led you to this belief (i.e. hope, etc.)? Frankly, I think you are comfortable in your belief and see no need to upset the apple cart. That is the real reason you are a Creationist.
Of course, this goes both ways. As an agnostic, I feel no strong enough reason to study the Bible and convert. I currently am not depressed and hopeless, searching for meaning. I am not a good candidate for conversion. I would not be reading the Bible for deeper religious meaning. I would be looking for contradictions instead of an honest pursuit of a Christian view.
So, we have this forum that allows to try to move the unmovable. We defend our views and attack the other. Too bad God doesn't log on and settle this simply. He could tell us some scientific secrets that we have not yet discovered, but could verify. He could give an explanation of why evolution appears (to many of us who look deeper into cause/effect) so slam dunk correct.
So, you stated you are Creationist because of Evolution shortcomings. Balogna!

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 Message 1 by mike the wiz, posted 09-13-2004 10:04 PM mike the wiz has not replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 8 of 210 (142245)
09-13-2004 11:33 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by ThingsChange
09-13-2004 11:21 PM


Re: Reasons for and against
He could give an explanation of why evolution appears (to many of us who look deeper into cause/effect) so slam dunk correct.
GOD's laughing because HE knows evolution is what happened. And I think he is also enjoying our working out how things work. Odds are HE's giving us at least a B+ over the last couple hundred years but I bet he had real doubts before that.
After all, almost every, no, in fact every, major Christian Faith has come out in support of teaching Evolution and not teaching creationism.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 6353 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 9 of 210 (142262)
09-14-2004 12:19 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by jar
09-13-2004 10:13 PM


Oscar who ?
[pedant]
According to my beaten up old (1970) dictionary the word MTW was after is :
quote:
baloney, boloney n. (Slang) misleading talk; humbug; nonsense [etym. unknown]
Bologna is a city in Italy which is pronounced quite differently
You do get the meat over here (and we do pronounce it like you guys) but it's nowhere near as common/popular as in the States. As far as I know we don't get Oscar Mayer products here (yet), so unless Mike has spent time in the US he was probably sat there thinking WTF ?
[/pedant]

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MrHambre
Member (Idle past 1392 days)
Posts: 1495
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 10 of 210 (142281)
09-14-2004 7:12 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by mike the wiz
09-13-2004 10:04 PM


mike the wiz says:
quote:
And finally, evolutionists piss me off.
I assume you mean all the ones who've taken the time to try to explain things to you in a patient, rational way despite the obvious futility of making such an effort. We appreciate your gratitude.
regards,
Esteban Hambre

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by mike the wiz, posted 09-13-2004 10:04 PM mike the wiz has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Ooook!
Member (Idle past 5815 days)
Posts: 340
From: London, UK
Joined: 09-29-2003


Message 11 of 210 (142388)
09-14-2004 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by MrHambre
09-14-2004 7:12 AM


Don't be too harsh on Mike. I've seen him being very appreciative of the explanations provided by Evos, so I get the feeling he's being deliberately provacative.
In other words he is being (as my Dad would put it) "A right Little Stirrer!"

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Replies to this message:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 12 of 210 (142433)
09-14-2004 7:44 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by mike the wiz
09-13-2004 10:04 PM


I still think [...] that people "favour" evolution because some people fear of bibleGod being true.
as a former athiest, i can attest that this is most certainly NOT the case in the slightest. but allow me to go off on a tangent and explain why people would be afraid of "bibleGod."
this is a god who lies to his children to keep wisdom from them, lest they become like god. this is a god who confused mankind with different languages, because he was worried about mankind's progress. this a god who instructed his children to steal from their neighbors, and encouraged the conquering of a LARGE portion of the middle east. this text STILL encourages war several thousand years later. this a god who allowed deceit and treachery on the part of his first called servant to go unpunished. this is a god who was alright with the sons of israel killing an entire city for raping their sister, after tricking them into circumcision (god's holy covenant) in order to weaken them. this is a god who said he holds children and even grandchildren responsible for their parents' crimes. this is a god who killed two people for not impregnating their brother's wife. this is a god who decimated egyptian society by manipulating the emotions of pharoah and then punishing everyone for it, including killing many, many innocent children only to get off on how glorious his might is. this is a god who even calls himself jealous -- a very immature and dangerous quality. this is a god who will kill you for touching his stuff. this is a god who tells you kill people who work on saturdays.
starting to get the picture of why many unbelievers would not want to believe in this god?
anyhow. not trying to insult the religion, that's all just what the bible says, more or less up to the point i am in my current reading. i happen to be a believer myself, as you may or may not remember. i just think we should be honest about what the bible actually says about god. but on to your points:
1. Natural selection can be shown but I don't buy into the second mechanism of mutation.
i'm different from you. why is that? you're different than your mother or father, some combination of the two. why is that?
2. I see no reason to believe that I came from a common ancestor.
common implies two. you have no reason to believe you and who or what came from a common ancestor? according to the bible, all humanity came from a common ancestor.
3. I'm generally unconvinced by it all, and believe that evidence can also favour creation, and why not? The bible is true!
i'm reasonably unconvinced by the bible, having looked at a little geology, paleontology, and archaeology, as well as actually read it, studied it's history, interpretation, errors and inconsistencies. i'm currently in a bible class in college, actually, and the course is doing a number on the christians. the professor is doign things like pointing verse that just don't work or make any sense until you realize some scribe made a typo 3000 years ago. today, we were talking about books that plaigarized other books, and why jeremiah is in a completely different order depending on your bible. we also talked about why some psalms are repeated.
4. We are way above other animals in our "different ways" - look at what we do; art etc... languages.
elephants paint, and ants have language. it's history and tradition -- recording language -- that puts us "above" other animals.
5. People skit bibleGod and laugh and say "that's bull cos evo' happened"
well, no. but people do generally knock the 7-days 6000-years-ago idea because all of geology indicates something else. the bible says very little about biology.
6. I can do science like test gravity etc, and I also believe science is correct about facts, but theories, why should they be an absolute certainty when we cannot know what happened in the past. I don't buy into uniformatarianism.
if you drop a ball, what will it do? will it always do that? how do you know? has every ball ever dropped done the same?
And finally, evolutionists piss me off.
the word "evolutionis" pisses me off. it's not an ideology, it's a scientific theory. there is no -ism attached to it. people don't believe it, they study it.
and fundamentalist christians piss me off. because most of the ideology i can prove incorrect just within the confines of the bible itself as literature, yet they never listen to reason. and because they cause most everyone else to laugh at christians in general.
The same guys who argue creation with me, argue against Christ
i don't think any "evolutionist" is trying to deny religion, just a particular brand of it that says certain things about reality that just don't hold up, only to decieve followers into their particular following.
[editted for typos]
This message has been edited by Arachnophilia, 09-14-2004 07:24 PM

This message is a reply to:
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Rei
Member (Idle past 7012 days)
Posts: 1546
From: Iowa City, IA
Joined: 09-03-2003


Message 13 of 210 (142455)
09-14-2004 9:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by mike the wiz
09-13-2004 10:04 PM


I'll skip over the lines of personal incredulity, and go to the conceptions of reality:
quote:
1. Natural selection can be shown but I don't buy into the second mechanism of mutation.
Have you seen the pigeons?
quote:
4. We are way above other animals in our "different ways" - look at what we do; art etc... languages.
Art? Even bowerbirds have an aesthetic sense - in fact, it is one of their biggest mating selection factors, and each bird comes up with their own design (and they're very picky!). Art for art's sake, perhaps, humans might have cornered the market on.
Languages? Not even. Languages with *tens of thousands of words*, yes, but many species have smaller languages. For example, Vervet monkeys naturally have different sounds they make for leopards, eagles, snakes, and other groups of monkeys (among other things); furthermore, these have been shown to be learned behaviors. Even bees have a rather complex language for how simple of organisms they are - through their dances, they can indicate direction, distance, and quality of nectar. While we don't know the meaning of many wild parrot communications, in captivity they have been shown to be able to have vocabularies of several hundred words, and can understand concepts such as color, shape, size, etc, and communicate them. And lets not even get into chimps (which actually form complete sentences (in sign language) in captivity (they're usually short subject-verb clauses, sometimes with adjectives and occasionally multiple nouns)). Languages are very common in the animal world; some animals only have a few sounds, while others have hundreds - some very complex.
quote:
5. People skit bibleGod and laugh and say "that's bull cos evo' happened"
Is that your main problem with evolution? That you see it as anti-God? The vast majority of the people in the world who believe in evolution are theists. In the US, the breakdown among the general population is typically around 50% creationist, 45% guided evolution, 5% atheist. Among the scientific community, it is usually around 50% atheist, 45% guided evolution, and 5% creationist. These are rough numbers; I'd have to dig up a survey for you.
quote:
6. I can do science like test gravity etc, and I also believe science is correct about facts, but theories, why should they be an absolute certainty when we cannot know what happened in the past. I don't buy into uniformatarianism.
Do you not feel that if a theory fits a vast amount of available evidence gathered from all over the planet, miles up and down from the surface, by millions of people over hundreds of years, and no single rival theory has yet been proposed that manages to explain it all, that it would only be logical to accept it?
quote:
And finally, evolutionists piss me off. The same guys who argue creation with me, argue against Christ. So I must conclude this evo thing is against bibleGod, and therefore against me. So stick evolution, it's bullony..
Only on places like this forum. The vast majority of people who believe in evolution also believe in God.

"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by mike the wiz, posted 09-13-2004 10:04 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
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Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 210 (142509)
09-15-2004 10:11 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Ooook!
09-14-2004 4:46 PM


Don't be too harsh on Mike.
True. It's kind of like kicking a blind, three-legged stray dog with bladder-control problems.
Sure, it's funny. But out of context people might take it the wrong way.

"Good evening. I'm playing the role of Jesus; a man once portrayed on the big screen by Jeffery Hunter. You may remember him as the actor who was replaced by William Shatner on Star Trek. Apparently Mr. Hunter was good enough to die for our sins, but not quite up to the task of seducing green women."
-Stewie Griffin

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mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 15 of 210 (142540)
09-15-2004 2:02 PM


This is a parody of my former self. I typed in "Creation is true" - my first ever topic at this forum. And I then laughed at it,.
I thought "evo's piss me off" would have surely gave the game away. As that would be a bizarre reason to not believe in evolution.
Also, this topic is a "test" I wanted to read some of my reasons and ask myself if I still believe them. Some I do, some I don't. I'd say number 3 + 4, and 6 are accurate to what I am thinking, apart from "I'm unconvinced by it all" -and certainly some evos fight against Christ - but not all. Even those who have refrained from this topic (him that read - let him understand)and typed nothing in reponse to my naughty tongue, is even innocent of this! And even never fight against Christ!
.........10 points to Ooook. I enjoy stirring it from time to time. Bologna that is. Honestly though Jar, I am still confused by your response.
As for the blasphemy of God by an unbeliever, this is a most disgraceful attempt to accuse God. And even evidences my naughty sayings almost!
unbeliever writes:
this is a god who lies to his children to keep wisdom from them, lest they become like god
THE LORD prefers those who seek wisdom, rather than offering whole sacrifices, and burnt offerings, so that blood is spilled in vain. Your tongue is full of poison against God!
This is God preventing us from ourselves, and look at now what we do - we attempt to intefere with genetics, and make bombs. Also - your above quote is innacurate and wrongful, and you didn't back it up. It is a rant against God, and it is infact a lack of wisdom of spirit, and understanding!
anyhow. not trying to insult the religion, that's all just what the bible says, more or less up to the point i am in my current reading. i happen to be a believer myself, as you may or may not remember.
If you are a believer, then you have dismissed all that the NT says, in favour of trying in vain to make God look bad and blaspheming his name. Likewise did that man say it to those in Jerusalem, "who is God that he will stop the Assyrian" - thus God did speedily remove that blasphemer, when Isaiah told them the word of the LORD.
If your rant was justified, and you trusted bibleGod, then you would know that we don't have the law of sin and death, and that all wars are made by humans. Even from the beginning God's intentions were good. But since we have the law of the spirit of life, I can trust that God and his actions are righteouss. Thus only doubters will conclude that God is evil, and call sin progress. I am even happily convinced, that all atrocities were done by man's hand!
because most of the ideology i can prove incorrect just within the confines of the bible itself as literature, yet they never listen to reason. and because they cause most everyone else to laugh at christians in general.
You can surely prove NOTHING! Even the bible is knowledge, which requires no proof. Where is your wisdom? You have replaced the want of wisdom with self-righteouss haughty tongues. You have said "Evn I - and none else beside me". You think you have the interpretation thereof - infact you have the blindfold of Isaiah and the wax that makes your ears dull of hearing!
and fundamentalist christians piss me off.
You spoke it!
'm currently in a bible class in college, actually, and the course is doing a number on the christians
No - it's doing a number on you. It is the world that speaks to you. Can you refute I AM. Thus if you fall on this stone, it will grind you to powder. Even I myself would wipe the floor with you, if the spirit came upon me. These classes are infact to give you a "list" of information. And intelligence they may have - but wisdom they lack, even the very prophets foretold this, and can you understand it? I trow not.
Even those who stammer with precepts, yet a little here, yet a little there - shall utterly blind you, and you won't know the dung that you call sweet to smell.
This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 09-15-2004 08:02 PM

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Dan Carroll, posted 09-15-2004 2:18 PM mike the wiz has replied
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