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Author Topic:   Meyer's Hopeless Monster
Member (Idle past 799 days)
Posts: 2161
From: Cambridgeshire, UK.
Joined: 02-05-2002

Message 50 of 207 (141987)
09-13-2004 7:36 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by ID man
09-11-2004 10:16 AM

ID: pg. 92
1) High information content (or specified complexity) and irreducible complexity constitute strong indicators or hallmarks of past intelligent design.
2) Biological systems have a high information content (or specified complexity) and utilize subsystems that manifest irreducible complexity.
3) Naturalistic mechanisms or undirected causes do not suffice to explain the origin of information (specified complexity) or irreducible complexity.
4) Therefore, intelligent design constitutes the best explanation for the origin of information and irreducible complexity in biological systems.

1-3 are unsupported assumptions, and the conclusion in 4 is
simply a opinion based upon those unsupported assumptions.

If 4 IS correct then it necessitates a creation event at some
point in the past (even if that was not on Earth). It also means
that no creator can exist who wasn't him/her/itself designed.

If an non-designed creator can exist then 1 & 3 MUST be false.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by ID man, posted 09-11-2004 10:16 AM ID man has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by ID man, posted 09-13-2004 10:50 AM Peter has replied

Member (Idle past 799 days)
Posts: 2161
From: Cambridgeshire, UK.
Joined: 02-05-2002

Message 68 of 207 (142330)
09-14-2004 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by ID man
09-13-2004 10:50 AM

The assertions are supported. They are supported by our current level of knowledge. Every time we see something with a high information content, specified complexity or is IC it is always due to an intelligent agency. Also we have never observed nature acting alone do such. Therefore 1-3 are supported.

This is not correct.

Biological systems exhibit (apparently) these properties, but
cannot be shown to be designed via an intelligent agency.

To suggest otherwise is cyclic.

RE: (2) requires such a laborious and philosophical dicussion of
the nature of information that people here tend to get very
bored and the threads get closed just when they start to
become interesting

RE: (1) IC has (at some length) been shown to be insufficient to
infer Intelligent Design. IC can come from evolutionary
algorithms in which the 'design' comes from 'unintelligent'
process even though the rules are set in place by an intelligence.

High information content depends on what you mean by information.
If that has the physics slant, then order can come from natural
processes and does often in chemical reactions.

If you want to ascribe some 'meaning' related defintion to
'information' in this context then the problems in RE: (2) rear
their none-too-attractive heads again.

RE: (3) as I am sure has been pointed out here as far as IC
is concerned they can be shown to be feasible. The information
part is then subject to that tiresome discussion.

Any comment on the issues involving primary source would be

If 'life' cannot have come about without intelligent intervention
then that recurses backward and we find that 'life' can never have
got started. NOTE: 'life' is in quotes and used here in a kind
of abstract/poetic sense rather than scientific context.

If the prime creator was NOT intelligently designed, then the
arguments are falsified, since to have intent to create the
prime creator would have had to have a high information content,
be IC, etc.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by ID man, posted 09-13-2004 10:50 AM ID man has not replied

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