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Author Topic:   DarkStar's Collection of Quotations - Number 1
PaulK
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Posts: 14819
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 166 of 173 (138037)
08-30-2004 6:59 AM
Reply to: Message 164 by Percy
08-29-2004 9:44 PM


Re: One good fraud deserves another.....
Unfortunately you make the mistake of believing Wells. Peppered moths have been observed resting on tree trunks.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by Percy, posted 08-29-2004 9:44 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by Percy, posted 08-30-2004 8:50 AM PaulK has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 18377
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 167 of 173 (138042)
08-30-2004 8:50 AM
Reply to: Message 166 by PaulK
08-30-2004 6:59 AM


Re: One good fraud deserves another.....
I don't know who Wells is. My information comes from Hooper's book. My recollections from it, very possibly spotty after all this time but I think I have the broad details correct, is that we don't know where peppered moths rest, but that it isn't on tree trunks.

If they *did* rest on tree trunks, then the fact that some nature photographers took the shortcut of fastening a moth to a tree trunk seems harmless. It would be like throwing a worm to a robin that yields a picture with a caption saying that robins hunt worms. We know robins hunt worms, one can see it everyday, and the staged photograph is just for illustration. If peppered moths really rested on tree trunks, then what would be the harm for purposes of illustration?

But apparently, as a general sort of thing, they don't rest on tree trunks. I guess we could consider this the key point of difference. DBlevins provided this link:

Moonshine: Why the Peppered Moth Remains an Icon of Evolution

Which at one point says this:

  1. Direct observation (1955, 1956) and filming (1956). Kettlewell and others observed birds eating moths directly off trunks of trees.

This is true as far as it goes. What it doesn't mention is that Kettlewell fastened the moths to the tree trunks. Paraphrasing Hooper, he constructed huge bird feeders.

The key questions for me are still where and when the birds eat the moths, and why is melanism a factor?

--Percy


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 Message 166 by PaulK, posted 08-30-2004 6:59 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by PaulK, posted 08-30-2004 9:50 AM Percy has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14819
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 168 of 173 (138048)
08-30-2004 9:50 AM
Reply to: Message 167 by Percy
08-30-2004 8:50 AM


Re: One good fraud deserves another.....
The point you were disputing only states that the moths sometimes rest on tree trunks.

According to the chart given here http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/wells/iconob.html#moths taken from Majerus' data 6 out of 47 moths observed were on the exposed trunk - and another 6 were on unexposed locations on the trunk (typically concealed behind vegetation).

The moths have been seen resting on tree trunks, in the wild, under natural conditions.


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 Message 167 by Percy, posted 08-30-2004 8:50 AM Percy has responded

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Percy
Member
Posts: 18377
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 169 of 173 (138103)
08-30-2004 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by PaulK
08-30-2004 9:50 AM


Re: One good fraud deserves another.....
PaulK writes:

According to the chart given here http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/wells/iconob.html#moths taken from Majerus' data 6 out of 47 moths observed were on the exposed trunk - and another 6 were on unexposed locations on the trunk (typically concealed behind vegetation).

The moths have been seen resting on tree trunks, in the wild, under natural conditions.

And Hooper says not so. Next time I'm in the library I'll check Hooper's book and see if she was aware of Majerus' work, and if so, whether she had any legitimate objections. It seems to me that if peppered moths *do* rest on tree trunks that much of the Creationist challenge is answered.

Interestingly, Majerus himself does not seem to believe he has settled the issue, because he's still working on it. The article In Defense of Darwin and a Former Icon of Evolution, purportedly from the journal Science in June of this year, says:

After decades of moth-watching, Majerus is convinced that Kettlewell was right and that bird predation is the primary agent of natural selection on the peppered moth. "But that can never be enough," he says, "because I'm also a scientist. ... We're miles beyond reasonable doubt, but it's not scientific proof."

Majerus's experiment is designed to avoid the mistakes Kettlewell made when comparing the proportion of typical and melanic peppered moths that escape the attention of predatory birds. He's releasing a small number of moths, at night, and letting them choose their own hiding places within specially designed mesh sleeves, which he removes at dawn. Like Kettlewell, he's using a mixture of lab-reared and wild-caught moths, but his design allows him to test for potential differences between the two. Majerus is determined to get "a definite answer" on the bird predation issue.

Although Majerus expects to confirm Kettlewell's conclusions, he claims not to care which way the results go: Any findings, he thinks, would make a splash by settling the controversy. But peppered moth expert and evolutionary geneticist Bruce Grant of the College of William and Mary in Williamsburg, Virginia, doubts that Majerus will silence the critics. "To do the job the right way is going to be too labor-intensive and it's just not worth it. ... Right now, I think there are other things that need doing more."

Though Majerus is narrowing in on the issue, even he doesn't think we've got the final answer yet.

What interests me most isn't peppered moths, melanism and bird predation, but presenting an example of natural selection in the wild that doesn't have obvious weaknesses.

--Percy


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 Message 168 by PaulK, posted 08-30-2004 9:50 AM PaulK has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 18377
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 170 of 173 (138493)
08-31-2004 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by DarkStar
08-23-2004 12:24 AM


Bump for DarkStar
You have replies.

--Percy


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 Message 135 by DarkStar, posted 08-23-2004 12:24 AM DarkStar has not yet responded

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 Message 171 by Percy, posted 09-05-2004 11:51 AM Percy has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 18377
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 171 of 173 (140059)
09-05-2004 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 170 by Percy
08-31-2004 1:50 PM


Bump for DarkStar
Hello, DarkStar, are you there?

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by Percy, posted 08-31-2004 1:50 PM Percy has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by crashfrog, posted 09-05-2004 4:17 PM Percy has not yet responded

  
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 172 of 173 (140108)
09-05-2004 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by Percy
09-05-2004 11:51 AM


Re: Bump for DarkStar
Yeah, where did DS go?

The author of the relevant Darwin Quote Mine Project article (the one DS linked to and I quoted at the beginning of the thread), John Pieret, was kind enough to email me a tiff file of the actual letter in question; along with a typed-up transcript. (Much love to Mr. Pieret.)

I'm gonna post all that on the site later this week; my DSL comes in this week and then I actually download the huge tiff file and host it. So stay tuned. Of course, there's not much point if we've chased DS off...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by Percy, posted 09-05-2004 11:51 AM Percy has not yet responded

Adminnemooseus
Director
Posts: 3879
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 173 of 173 (142416)
09-14-2004 7:05 PM


Topic drifted badly - Now inactive - Closing time
This topic was VERY specificly created to be about the Darwin quotation:

quote:
"I am quite conscious that my speculations run quite beyond the bounds of true science." as quoted in *N.C. Gillespie, Charles Darwin and the Problem of Creation (1979), p. 2 [University of Chicago book].

The topic has drifted all over the place, including an excellent but badly misplaced discussion of the Peppered Moth.

Closing the topic (for the second time).

Adminnemooseus

This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 09-14-2004 06:11 PM


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