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Author Topic:   Meyer's Hopeless Monster
AdminNosy
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Message 2 of 207 (136891)
08-25-2004 11:08 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
AdminNosy
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Message 66 of 207 (142324)
09-14-2004 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by PaulK
09-13-2004 11:36 AM


Wrong?
No, I don't admit that I am wrong.

Can we clarify what you may or may not be wrong about? Behe is an IDist. He accepts common decent. It might appear that you were saying IDists don't accept common decent. One example would make you technically wrong.

However, ID Man might be saying that the "movement" as a whole isn't religious or somesuch. The general statement of the discovery institute would show him to be wrong with exceptions.

Just what is the argument there exactly?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by PaulK, posted 09-13-2004 11:36 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by PaulK, posted 09-14-2004 11:44 AM AdminNosy has replied

  
AdminNosy
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Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 83 of 207 (142405)
09-14-2004 5:47 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by PaulK
09-14-2004 11:44 AM


Clarification
Htank you for the clarification.

Now it is up to ID Man to clarify what he is saying.


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 Message 67 by PaulK, posted 09-14-2004 11:44 AM PaulK has not replied

  
AdminNosy
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Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 92 of 207 (142716)
09-16-2004 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by PaulK
09-16-2004 11:22 AM


Clarification
You were asked for a clarification of your position.
It can be as short as the response in post 67.

The central point seems to be:
Is ID a form of creationism only if ALL the proponents are creationists? If a few are, is it creationism; if only a few are NOT creationists is it creationism?

You dispute the story of Jones' resignation. If it is true would that make the ID movement creationist? I didn't say that it was true but IF it was would that settle the issue?

Please respond with simple answers to these questions. Then we can do some fact checking.

I think PaulK's clarification could use a bit more too. He is saying, in my interpretion:
No, it doesn't take all of them to make it a creationist movement just a lot of them.
He is going on, not individual views, but what the organizations have stated and how they have behaved to one with discenting views.

However, I don't remember what references he has posted to support what he is saying.

Both (all) of you. Before arguing about IS, ISN'T, IS. Let's try to agree on what criteria we would use to determine which is correct.

So far there seem to be these things to choose from:

Proportion of those in the movement that have a particular view.
Writen statments of the organizations.
Behavior of organizations to those who disagree with creationism.

Are those the only criteria? Do we all agree they are useful in settling the question? How would you use them to settle it?


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 Message 86 by PaulK, posted 09-16-2004 11:22 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
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AdminNosy
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Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 96 of 207 (142723)
09-16-2004 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by PaulK
09-16-2004 11:55 AM


Re: Clarification
Ok, ID Man, do you agree with this method of settling things?

If an ID organization (or prominent member) uses common descent as a filter to remove some individuals does that suggest that the movement is trying to support a basic creationist belief?

Are we perhaps using different definitions of creationist?

We have used OEC and YEC to separate different types of creationists before? OEC'ers are mostly taken as being creationists even if they don't believe in a 6 day creation and flood. ID Man, are they still creationists?


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AdminNosy
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Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 101 of 207 (142757)
09-16-2004 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by Percy
09-16-2004 12:04 PM


Re: Clarification
They are noting what PaulK has said. Then asking ID Man about them.

It seems to me that it is hard to settle the issue the way things are going. I'm suggesting that we agree (without worrying about what facts there are ) just what we would consider reasons for and against the ID movement being creationist. As we all know there are many definitions of the word creationist. If we don't agree on one then we will continue to argue past each other.


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Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by Brad McFall, posted 09-16-2004 2:45 PM AdminNosy has not replied

  
AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 180 of 207 (146511)
10-01-2004 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by ID man
09-30-2004 8:01 PM


Denial??
BTW my initials are AJ not JP(?).

I am taking this as a denial that you are actually John Paul as Hambre has suggested. The intial breaking of the guidelines is dishonest to avoid the point further is more dishonesty.

You are suspended. You may take it up with Admin by email. The suspension is indefinite.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by ID man, posted 09-30-2004 8:01 PM ID man has not replied

  
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