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Author | Topic: Dating the Exodus | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Rei Member (Idle past 7013 days) Posts: 1546 From: Iowa City, IA Joined: |
Velikovsky is a complete nut. Are you familiar with the other sort of stuff that he's proposed? Lets list a few.
* - Venus is a comet that was initially part of the Jupiter system* - Earth, Venus, and Mars have collided regularly * - Earth's rotation has completely reversed in the past 3000 years * - Earth's geology was catastrophically changed by close passes with Venus * - "Manna" is edible carbohydrates manufactured by microorganisms in Venus's "tail" through some unknown mechanism. * - Venus's atmosphere is composed of hydrocarbons and carbohydrates * - Venus isn't hot at all, and the greenhouse effect violates the laws of thermodynamics * - Craters on venus are from some kind of interplanetary electrical discharge * - Venus got a circular orbit through electromagnetic forces Do you seriously want to defend this guy? "Illuminant light, illuminate me."
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Rei Member (Idle past 7013 days) Posts: 1546 From: Iowa City, IA Joined: |
I'd call completely denying spectral analysis and the heat retention properties of gasses (and the corresponding infared glow, and since, direct measurements from probes) to be fringe science. Why wouldn't you?
You're trying to use this man's personal credibility to back up your arguments when you were shown how wrong they were. I demonstrated that he has no personal credibility. Really, you have two options: Defend this guy's personal credibility, or drop your argument by personal credibility. If you choose the first option, I've presented his claims above - show us that they're not completely nutty fringe science. If you choose the second option, bring up some real evidence backing up what he claims. P.S.: I'm not trying to use Crick's personal credibility here as a reference. This message has been edited by Rei, 09-17-2004 03:43 PM "Illuminant light, illuminate me."
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Rei Member (Idle past 7013 days) Posts: 1546 From: Iowa City, IA Joined: |
Are you going to drop Velikovsky - the source of your sole non-bilbical reference for the exodus - then?
There's nothing left to debate with you if you take Velikovsky out of it - he's the only person you referenced, and he's a complete nut. Correction: You quoted some Rutherford, too. Do you wish to discuss Rutherford's claims and drop Velikovsky? This message has been edited by Rei, 09-17-2004 03:55 PM "Illuminant light, illuminate me."
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Rei Member (Idle past 7013 days) Posts: 1546 From: Iowa City, IA Joined: |
I'll only respond to Rutherford, since you've refused to defend Velikovsky.
quote: True, but deceptive. First off, the great mass of evidence unearthed has shown *no* evidence of an influx of a volume of people even a fraction the size of the Israelites, *regardless* of which date you choose. Most notably absent is *any* significant evidence in Sinai, nor any evidence of the supposed Israeli-Egyptian battles as described in the bible. Secondly, the archaeological evidence shows the destruction of various Canaanite cities *all throughout this period*. In fact, there is much evidence that the story is written later. Egypt is referred to as the "land of Goshen", derrived from Geshem, a 5th century BC Qedarite royal family name. No pharaoh names are ever given, which would be surprising given how much the Pharaos tried to publicize their names. No mention is ever made of the Egyptian forts in the Sinai which, while gone centuries later, were present during the peak of Egypt's power under which the exodus supposedly occurred. Moses is named by the pharaoh's daughter, and yet is given the name because it sounds similar to "I drew him out" in Hebrew (so we have the Pharaoh's daughter speaking Hebrew?). Etc. Kadesh-Barnea has turned up no evidence of an encampment. Ezion-geber? The same. Tel Arad, where Israel supposedly fought King Arad? Nothing from the late Bronze Age. Tel Hesbon, where Israel supposedly fought the Amorites? Again, nothing from the Bronze Age. Etc. There have been genetic studies on human remains of the people in the region - their genetics don't change. Cultural artifact styles don't change. Etc. There simply was no exodus.
quote: People don't even know exactly where Bethel was. Even seminaries generally freely admit this.
quote: The Habiru. Not the Israelites. The Habiru, who the Sumerians described as an "unclothed people, who travel in dead silence, who destroy everything, whose menfolk go where they will"? Who, when Habiru soldiers were listed in the Tikunani Prism, had Hurrian names for the most part (a small fraction had semitic names)? Are these the people who you're calling the people of Israel? Suuuure. If they are, than the people of Israel were completely different than portrayed in the bible. Realistically, though, as the Oxford History of the Biblical world concluded, after more texts kept finding "Habiru" living all around the fertile cresent with different descriptions, that they had no common ethnic affiliations, spoke no common language, and were in general a term for nomadic brigands. "Illuminant light, illuminate me."
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Rei Member (Idle past 7013 days) Posts: 1546 From: Iowa City, IA Joined: |
Sorry, I missed your earlier post. Give me a minute, and I'll take care of it.
quote: Why are you arguing about the date, when such a thing is evidenced at *no date*?
quote: The evidence of an influx of half a million men (plus others) isn't dependent on the school of biblical exegesis you adhere to. It doesn't exist anywhere.
quote: I already responded to your post, and raised a number of criticisms to it - namely, the appalling lack of evidence of a huge number of people moving in.
quote:quote: I forgot - you don't address individual points. Silly me. Are you going to tackle *any* of those?
quote: Thus asserts WILLOWTREE, without giving *any* examples, as I did, for which you faulted me.
quote: Not when you're trying to use archaeology to back up your case over here.
quote: The Bible was written because Constantine ordered the printing of 50 bibles, which froze the cannon and declared what was aprocryphal and what was not. The cannon is composed of the old testament plus a variety of different, and sometimes contradictory, new testament books that were followed by sects of Christians living in different regions of the Mediterranean. The Old Testament was a set of stories, some backed by evidence, some blatantly false (for example, off the top of my head, Esther is a glaring example) accumulated on top of the Pentateuch, some for moralistic purposes, and some for historical purposes. The Pentateuch was written to unify the varied stories of the different sects of the Israeli population, including the priestly tradition and the deuteronomic tradition, in addition to the JE epic narratives (Judah and Elohim (northern Israeli tradition)).
quote: Look, if you want to keep your debate about when the bible says the exodus was out of archaeological facts, then be my guest - I won't interfere. But if you bring up archaeology, I'm going to object when you assert things that are false. Expect it.
quote: Other archaeology from completely different places and sources (including historical records, lists of kings, etc), radiometric dating (often with concordance models), dendrochronology and ice-core dating, and various lines of archaeological investigation (writings, pottery styles, situational features (ash, etc), fossil analysis/genetic study, etc).
quote: A typical Egyptian fortress could hold perhaps a couple hundred people, and usually held far less (excluding the large depots, like at Tharu). You're talking about a bare minimum of half a million people leaving no evidence. *Yeah right* we're not going to find any evidence; it should be littering the countryside. Genetics should be changing. Pottery or other cultural styles should be changing. Etc. It just doesn't happen. It's not there.
quote: But there *are* a number of archaeological sites in the Nile Delta, and they often show quite a good degree of preservation, so that argument doesn't stand. Heck, many of them were found during searches for confirmation of the exodus, such as Naville's excavations at Saft el Henna and Tell el-Maskhutah.
quote: Ask, and ye shall receive. Here's a basic primer, with a very long listing of sources. It cites many of the inscrptions involved.
quote: The heck it isn't! Even the Oxford History of the Biblical World disagrees with you, let alone the vast majority of archaeologists. It most distinctly IS a matter of opinion, and a distinct *minority* one at that.
quote: If you'll agree that the hebrews didn't have semitic names the majority of the time, ran around naked, lived as thugs, and lived all throughout ancient mesopotamia, sure.
quote:quote: Brigands? Who ran around naked, and lived in the whole middle east, and didn't usually have semitic names? Are you serious?
quote: It's not a paradox. It didn't happen, at any date. You can hold your own views, of course, but as I mentioned, if you try and back it up with bad archaeology, I'm going to call you on it. This message has been edited by Rei, 09-23-2004 03:08 PM "Illuminant light, illuminate me."
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