Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 63 (9162 total)
5 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 916,353 Year: 3,610/9,624 Month: 481/974 Week: 94/276 Day: 22/23 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Dating the Exodus
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3066 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 190 of 317 (135036)
08-18-2004 5:52 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by CK
08-18-2004 5:50 PM


Re: Lies!??

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by CK, posted 08-18-2004 5:50 PM CK has not replied

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3066 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 191 of 317 (135040)
08-18-2004 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by Amlodhi
08-17-2004 6:15 PM


Re: Destruction of Hazor
"The Common Backround of Greek and Hebrew Civilizations" by Professor C. Gordon.
The book is voluminous evidence that greek writing and culture originated from Hebrew via Egypt/Palestine, source: The Peneteuch.
Your brazen assertions contrary to the thesis of the source, besides confounding the evidence/arguments also assumes Greek civilization somehow pre-dates Hebrew.
Genesis is called as such for obvious reasons.
Semites armed with Peneteuchal origin flooded the entire Near East and according to Dr. Gordon are responsible for the Grecian spring of culture and knowledge.
All this supports the Biblical scenario of Adamkind starting close to the source of life/knowledge/God and His choice of Abram and Isaac and Jacob and Joseph/descendants to possess His largess of blessing which was exported to the ancient worlds.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by Amlodhi, posted 08-17-2004 6:15 PM Amlodhi has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 194 by Amlodhi, posted 08-18-2004 6:31 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3066 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 196 of 317 (135059)
08-18-2004 6:44 PM
Reply to: Message 193 by crashfrog
08-18-2004 6:30 PM


Re: Lies!??
You know, that's a common accusation, but when we beg - literally beg - for creationists and other adherents of "minority" ideologies to step in as admins, none of them ever step up.
Thats a lie/
In reality, the Admins will only allow creo/evo hybrid creos eligible for Admin position.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by crashfrog, posted 08-18-2004 6:30 PM crashfrog has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by AdminNosy, posted 08-18-2004 6:50 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3066 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 198 of 317 (135063)
08-18-2004 6:54 PM
Reply to: Message 194 by Amlodhi
08-18-2004 6:31 PM


You are obviously in the process of obtaining the source - I will wait.
Also, my previous posts about Gordon have been ignored.
When opponents commence concluding, and/or backing up their OP assertions about "asiatics"/ruling Egypt/Hyksos I will break in.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by Amlodhi, posted 08-18-2004 6:31 PM Amlodhi has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by Amlodhi, posted 08-18-2004 8:02 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3066 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 202 of 317 (135276)
08-19-2004 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by Amlodhi
08-18-2004 8:02 PM


What specifically are you seeking/asking ?
What is your response to the Dr. Gordon content already posted ?
AND, is what you seek on-topic here or more appropriate elsewhere ?
WT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by Amlodhi, posted 08-18-2004 8:02 PM Amlodhi has not replied

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3066 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 215 of 317 (140131)
09-05-2004 5:49 PM
Reply to: Message 214 by Brian
09-04-2004 8:39 AM


A Few Questions
Hi Brian:
I am preparing a major defense of the 15th century/attack on the 13th century and I would like you to commit to a certain and precise date or at least within 25 years.
What is your date of the Exodus ?
What do you believe the Bible's/O.T. date to be ?
A while back you linked me to a post that you wrote about the dating and now I cannot find it. Where is this post ?
Do you still stand by the post's content ?
My forth-coming post will be about how and why 1453 BC is correct.
(minus the Great Pyramid determination)
Thanks,
WT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by Brian, posted 09-04-2004 8:39 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 240 by Brian, posted 09-25-2004 7:26 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3066 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 217 of 317 (142163)
09-13-2004 7:24 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Brian
08-10-2004 10:35 AM


Just a bump and a friendly reminder that I am about to post my defense of the 15th century/attack on the 13th century and hopefully this topic will take-off again.
WT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Brian, posted 08-10-2004 10:35 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by Brian, posted 09-14-2004 2:01 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3066 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 219 of 317 (142845)
09-16-2004 11:38 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Brian
08-10-2004 10:35 AM


EXODUS DATE: 1453 BC
There are three schools of beliefs concerning the dating of the Exodus:
High-Date Theory: c.1615 - 1550 BC
Early-Date Theory: c.1497 - 1440 BC (1453 = correct date)
Low-Date Theory: c.1290 - 1225 BC
SOURCE: "Pyramidology Book III" [1966, London] by Dr. Adam Rutherford
Unless otherwise noted all the content of this post belongs to Rutherford. Specific quotes will be cited by chapter title and page number.
The chief source for knowledge about the Exodus is the Bible as it was written to communicate truth which would otherwise not be recorded and thus remain unknown.
As any contributor advocating a date who uses scripture to support their theory must incorporate what the entire source says about the Exodus dating. In other words, theorists who hunt and peck/pick and choose, certain passages, while arbitrarily and capriciously ignoring what the entire source offers is obviously engaged in misrepresentation/error.
Early-Date/1453 BC:
I contend that the Bible dates the Exodus at precisely 1453 BC.
1 Kings 6:1
And it came to pass in the four hundred and eightieth year after the children of Israel were come out of the land of Egypt, in the fourth year of Solomon's reign over Israel, in the month Zif, which is the second month, that he began to build the house of the LORD.
Numbers 33:3
And they departed from Rameses in the first month, on the fifteenth day of the first month; on the morrow after the passover the children of Israel went out with an high hand in the sight of all the Egyptians.
The precise span derived from the above passages is 479 years and 1 month, which has the Temple construction beginning very early in the 480th year since the Exodus.
Rutherford/"The Exodus and Wilderness Journey" page 621:
"Solomon's 1st year was 978-977 BC and his 4th year, 975-974 BC. As the building of the Temple began in the 2nd month, it was therefore in the late Spring of 974 BC, as the regnal years were Tishri to Tishri. The interval from the 1st month 1453 BC to the 2nd month, 974 BC, was therefore 479 years 1 month, the Temple work began in the 480th year after the Exodus and this is identical to 1Kings 6:1"
Rutherford/Chapter VII, page 587:
"Dr. H.R. Hall (late Head of the Department of Egyptian and Assyrian Antiquities in the British Museum)
Dr. Hall quote: "We know that Ahab was reigning over Israel in 853 BC, and any chronological theorizing as to Old Testament dates which takes no account of this fact is utterly worthless." ["The Ancient History of the Near East", page 16]
Solomon's last year was 938 BC at which time his son Rehoboam began to reign. The Kingdom was divided at this point with Jeroboam. Thus between Ahab and Jeroboam were 4 other kings and the very short reign of Zimri.
853 BC was the 22nd year of Ahab's rule which establishes his 1st regnal year to be 874 BC.
Between 874 BC and 938 BC were the reigns of:
Below contains Edit of 9-26-04:
Edit specifically adds Jeroboam content and civil war information.
Jeroboam - 22 years [1 Kings 14:20]
Nadab - 2 years [1 Kings 15:25]
Baasha - 24 years [1 Kings 15:33]
Elah - 2 years [1 Kings 16:8]
(civil war: Omri v.Tibni) - 2 years [1Kings 16:21,22](Rutherford, pages 597, 598, 599)
Omri - 12 years [1 Kings 16:23]
End Edit of 9-26-04
This accounts for the 64 years between Ahab and the death of Solomon.
From the benchmark dating above I will work back:
Years of Reign
Solomon 978 to 938 BC. [40 years] (1Kings 2:42 / 2Chronicles 9:30)
David 978 to 1018 BC. [40 years] (2Samuel 5:4,5)
Saul 1018 to 1058 BC. [40 years] (Acts 13:21) / Josephus ("Antiquities" VI, xiv, 9)
Above Total: 120 years.
JUDGES INTERVAL
Samuel: (alone) 1069-1058 [11 years] (1 year co-regency with Saul)
No ruler: 1083-1069 [14 years]
Abdon: 1091-1083 [8 years] (Judges 12:12-14)
Elon: 1101-1091 [10 years] (Judges 12:11)
Ibzan: 1108-1101 [7 years] (Judges 12:7-9)
NOTE: Between 1108 and 1069 Eli the Priest ruled in that dimension for 40 years. Samson was a contemporary military judge for 20 years.
Jephthah: 1114-1108 [6 years] (Judges 12:7)
Jair: 1136-1114 [22 years] (Judges 10:3)
Tola: 1159-1156 [23 years] (Judges 10:1,2)
Abimelech: 1162-1159 [3 years] (Judges 9:22)
Gideon: 1202-1162 [40 years] (Judges 8:28)
Barak/Deborah: 1242-1202 [40 years] (Judges 5:31)
Shamgar: 1242 [please see edit at end of post]
Ehud: 1322-1242 [80 years] (duration of rest because of Ehud) (Judges 3:30)
Eglon King of Moab: 1340-1322 [18 years] (Judges 3:14)
Othniel: 1380-1340 [40 years] (Judges 3:11)
Chushan-rishathaim/King of Mesopotamia: 1388-1380 [8 years] (Judges 3:8)
Joshua/and the Elders: 1413-1388 [25 years](Josephus, "Antiquities V, I:29)
Above Total: 355 years
Duration of Wilderness journey: [40 years] (17 times the Bible states the aforementioned timespan)
Above Total: 40 years
TABULATION
Last year of Solomon's reign: 938 BC.
- 120 (938 BC +120 = 1058 BC)
- 355 (1058 BC + 355 = 1413 BC)
- 40 (1413 BC + 40 = 1453 BC)
Biblical Exodus Date: 1453 BC.
IMPORTANT: The book of Ruth and its chronology runs simultaneously within the Judges period, thus it does not lengthen or shorten Biblical chronology.
CONFIRMATION OF 1453 BC VIA HISTORICAL INTERLOCKING JUBILEE AND SABBATIC CYCLES (source: Dr. Gene Scott and Rutherford/Chapter X, pages 650-654)
Leviticus 25 (excerpts)
And the LORD spake unto Moses in mount Sinai, saying,
Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye come into the land which I give you, then shall the land keep a sabbath unto the LORD.
Six years thou shalt sow thy field, and six years thou shalt prune thy vineyard, and gather in the fruit thereof;
But in the seventh year shall be a sabbath of rest unto the land, a sabbath for the LORD: thou shalt neither sow thy field, nor prune thy vineyard.
That which groweth of its own accord of thy harvest thou shalt not reap, neither gather the grapes of thy vine undressed: for it is a year of rest unto the land.
And thou shalt number seven sabbaths of years unto thee, seven times seven years; and the space of the seven sabbaths of years shall be unto thee forty and nine years.
Then shalt thou cause the trumpet of the jubile to sound on the tenth day of the seventh month, in the day of atonement shall ye make the trumpet sound throughout all your land.
And ye shall hallow the fiftieth year, and proclaim liberty throughout all the land unto all the inhabitants thereof: it shall be a jubile unto you; and ye shall return every man unto his possession, and ye shall return every man unto his family.
A jubile shall that fiftieth year be unto you
Levitical law required the Israelites to refrain from farming the ground and releasing those in servitude to go free every 7th year. This became known as the Sabbatic Year/7-year Sabbatic Cycle.
Although these Cycles could not be fully operational until they entered the promise land/Canaan, their inaugural reckoning was the year of the Exodus. Thus the 50th year/Jubilee would come 50 years after the Exodus, which would be the 10th year (civil) since the entry into Canaan.
1453 - 40 year Wilderness journey - 10 years in Canaan = 50th year/Jubilee = 1405-1404 BC (inclusive of year 1453).
However, only after Israel enters Canaan does the first Jubilee Cycle begin, hence Cycle No.1 commences 1405-1404 BC. This Cycle No.1 is counted as such because the Leviticus text specifies "when they come into the land" (Leviticus 25:2).
The Jubilee/50th year would be celebrated at the end of 7 sets of 7 year Sabbatic Cycles. The silver Jubilee trumpet would sound throughout the land on the Day of Atonement (10th Tishri) and this new year would be observed as the Year of Jubilee.
According to the "Jewish Encylopedia", Vol.10, page 607:
"The 16th Jubilee occurred in the 18th year of Josiah's reign."
This historical fact produces the following tabulation:
16th Jubilee, that is 7 x 7 Sabbatic Cycles = 16 x 49 = 784 years.
1453 - 40 - 10 = 1405-1404 = date of first Jubilee Cycle.
Josiah's 18th year (621-620 BC) is when the said 16th Jubilee occurred.
The difference between 1405-1404 BC and 621-620 BC = 784 years.
784 divided by 49 = 16 with NO REMAINDER.
IMPORTANT: The fiftieth year was the Jubilee year, but the cycle ended at the 49th year. Hence, the 50th year is the Jubilee AND the first year of the NEXT cycle.
This post began by saying that the entire source of scripture must be accounted for if one desires to know what date it ascribes the Exodus to have happened.
The above calculation incorporates Biblical and historical interlocking facts which confirm the accuracy of the chronological system over a long range of centuries.
1Chronicles 6:33-37
And these are they that waited with their children. Of the sons of the Kohathites: Heman a singer, the son of Joel, the son of Shemuel,
34 The son of Elkanah, the son of Jeroham, the son of Eliel, the son of Toah,
35 The son of Zuph, the son of Elkanah, the son of Mahath, the son of Amasai,
36 The son of Elkanah, the son of Joel, the son of Azariah, the son of Zephaniah,
37 The son of Tahath, the son of Assir, the son of Ebiasaph, the son of Korah
The text above gives the genealogy of Heman the singer a descendant of Korah his father who perished in the Wilderness rebellion.
The number of generations between Korah and Heman is 18.
From Chapter IX "The Exodus and Wilderness Journey"/Rutherford, pages 631-633:
"Heman lived in the early years of David's reign and from this time until the 4th year of Solomon's was approximately 40 years, and this is equivalent to at least one generation more (19), thus establishing at least 19 generations from the Exodus.
Now, we have already ascertained that the 2nd month of Solomon's 4th year cited in 1Kings 6:1 fell in the year 974 BC. According to the Low-Date Theory the interval between 974 BC and 1290 BC is 316 years, within which the 19 generations would produce an average of 16 years and 8 months per generation.
Some give a date as low as circa 960 BC for Solomon's 4th year, but even by taking this date which is too low, the average generation would work out to only 17 years and four months. But surely everyone would agree that the average length of time to a generation is considerably more than 16 or 17 years. Hence, the Low-Date Exodus Theory allows too breif a period for the 19 or more generations from the Exodus to Solomon.
However, when we take the true duration of the period of time from the Exodus to Solomon's 4th year, in accordance with 1Kings 6:1, namely 479 years and 1 month, we find that the 19 generations which occupied this interval had an average of 25 years and two months."
The generations of Heman the singer alone substantiate the Low-Date Theory to be erroneously arrived at.
Brian Post 1 writes:
However, the chronology of 1 Kings 6:1 is not a literal 480 years, it is a schematic chronology based on 12 generations of 40 years. Therefore, it is fully justifiable to offer 25 years as a period of time more suitable to a generation, then we can reinterpret 1 Kings 6:1 to mean a period of 12 times 25 years, 300 years. This would fit in well with my suggestion of a mid 13th century Exodus.
The source says "480 years" yet Brian asserts contrary to what it says. Since when does "480 years" mean 12 generations of 25 years each ?
Answer: When mid-13th century theorists want to change the wording of a text so their theory can remain alive/have Biblical "support".
Brain admits it says "480 years" but he then subjectively asserts that "480 years" does not mean "480 years". If the text did not mean 480 years then why does it say "480 years" ?
Of course this is rhetorical. "480 years" means "480 years" and unless the text provides a basis to interpret the said number differently the text says what it means and means what it says.
1Kings 6 does not give any indication that "480 years" means 12 generations/25 years per. This is in-your-face text revisionism/corruption. Brian/Low-Date theorists must change the 480 years of 1Kings 6 into a scheme that fits their theory contrary to what the source they are using says.
The generations of Heman the singer to Korah his patriarchal father CONFIRM and CORROBORATE that the "480 years" of 1Kings 6 is intended to mean "480 years" and not Brian's "12 generations/300 years".
While Rutherford and Brian ultimately agree that a generation (in this context) is 25 years, the 19 generations of Heman the singer refute mid-13th century.
Rutherford's refutation works from a c.1290 date.
I remind that Brian's blue box quote above says "12 generations"/25 years per.
Rutherford/generations of Heman the singer:
19 x 25 = 475 (1Kings 6:1 = 480 years)
Brian:
12 x 25 = 300 = fictitious number subjectively created with no corroboration from scripture.
The difference between 480 and 300 is 180 years.
Brian's 1250 BC date + 180 = 1430 BC Exodus date.
The difference between Rutherford/Heman the singer's 19 generations and Brian's stated 12 generations is 7.
I forsee no other option of mid-13th century theorists but to arbitrarily ignore the 19 generations of Heman. This should be no problem in lieu of the admitted "480 years" means "12 generations/300 years" revisionism. This reckless handling of scripture can provide the basis to evidence any private theory.
The 16 Jubilee Cycles also decimates the Low-Date Theorists.
What we have in the Low-Date Theory is selective capricious extraction of certain quotes from the Bible while conspicuously avoiding what the source as a whole offers.
In other words, they are tethered to a different anchor of foundational data from which a 13th century date is chosen. This foundational base then grabs and changes certain passages from the Bible to support their position while ignoring the bulk which harms their date.
From: Cambridge Ancient History, Third Edition, Vol.2, Part 2 [1975] Chapter VII "Archaeological Evidence" pages 331,332:
"One must not forget that the interpretations of these finds {in Palestine} has been and still is largely dependant on the school of biblical exegesis to which the excavator adheres."
Low-Date/13th century theorists are tethered to THEIR interpretations of archaeological evidence as the chief source for an Exodus date.
And as we have already seen they also subscribe to a school of biblical exegesis which can be best compared to a butcher shop.
From: Cambridge Ancient History/Chronology, page 62 [1962]
"As might be expected, the Mycenaean pottery of Hazor XIV is still Mycenaean IIIa. In the next level, Hazor XIII, we have Mycenaean IIIb.
Consequently, the city came to an end in the 13th century.
Of outstanding importance for the chronology of the period of the Judges is the fact that there is no subsequent Canaanite level in Hazor. Hence the Canaanite kingdom of Hazor which Barak fought against should be the city of Hazor XIII.
Now the war between Israel and Hazor in Barak's time presupposes a period during which the Egyptian control of Palestine had broken down. In the vicinity of the 13th century we probably have three such periods:
1) before Sethos I
2) between about 1250 and the eighth year of Rameses III, though during part of this interval Merneptah probably re-established Egyptian control;
3) after 1150.
Periods 1 and 3 are excluded by the presensce in Hazor XIII of Mycenaean IIIb.
Hence Barak is to be dated to the second half of the 13th century."
Mid-13th century theorists assert that Joshua was responsible for the final destruction of Hazor, which of course, is contrary to what Cambridge reports.
The Cambridge data confirms the Biblical dating of Barak and Deborah supplied at the start of this post - 1242-1202 BC.
Rutherford/Chapter IX "Exodus and Wilderness Journey" pages 627-629:
"The great mass of archaeological information thus unearthed has revealed the destruction of various Canaanite cities in Palestine during the latter half of the 13th century BC.
One school of archaeologists has unfortunately assumed that this destruction was effected by the Israelites during the years immediately following their arrival in Canaan 40 years after the Exodus and on that basis it has therefore been assumed that the Exodus itself took place in the early half of the 13th century BC.
But the Bible is clear that the final destruction of Canaanite power in Palestine did not take place until more than 200 years after the Exodus, namely in the latter half of the 13th century BC in complete harmony with the above archaeological discoveries, which one section of archaeologists have erroneously applied to events only half a century after the Exodus.
It should be carefully observed that it was not Joshua's general policy to destroy all cities. Joshua 11:13 states "But as for the cities that stood on their mounds, Israel burned none of them save Hazor only; that did Joshua burn."
Futhermore archaeologists freely admit that during the 14th to 12th centuries BC some cities in Palestine had been destroyed more than once. This indicates that some cities which Joshua destroyed had subsequently been re-built. Joshua destroys Hazor by fire (Joshua 11:11), and Judges 4:2 says it was again a Canaanite royal city in the days of Deborah.
The destruction of some Canaanite cities by Joshua was not their final destruction as such.
Judges 2:21-23 and 3:1-3
I also will not henceforth drive out any from before them of the nations which Joshua left when he died:
22 That through them I may prove Israel, whether they will keep the way of the LORD to walk therein, as their fathers did keep it, or not.
23 Therefore the LORD left those nations, without driving them out hastily; neither delivered he them into the hand of Joshua.
Now these are the nations which the LORD left, to prove Israel by them, even as many of Israel as had not known all the wars of Canaan;
2 Only that the generations of the children of Israel might know, to teach them war, at the least such as before knew nothing thereof;
3 Namely, five lords of the Philistines, and all the Canaanites, and the Sidonians, and the Hivites that dwelt in mount Lebanon, from mount Baalhermon unto the entering in of Hamath.
Low-Date theorists do not account for the historical facts reported above from the book of Judges, that is the preservation of heathen nations in Palestine by God to further test Israel. Hence the Bible does not claim total destruction by Joshua but in fact clearly states the existence of these kingdoms which accounts for archaeological data substantiating cities of Palestine being destroyed more than once.
continuing with Rutherford, page 628:
"The destruction of some Canaanite cities by Joshua was not their final destruction as such. There is no indication of the destruction of Bethel, amongst other places, in the early Israelite conquests, although it was taken by "the House of Joseph" as recorded in Judges 1:22-26. But the excavations carried out at the site in 1934 under the direction of Prof. Albright of America reveal that the city was subsequently destroyed by fire in the 13th century and the final destruction of Canaanite power at that time is confirmed by the Scriptures.
Thus these archaeological discoveries in Palestine in connection with the Canaanite overthrow that have in recent years largely been made the basis of the low-date theory of the Exodus and Israelite invasion of Canaan, in actual fact disprove the theory and establish the Early-Date Exodus (1453 BC) view as the correct one.
Tell el-Amarna Tablets
Rutherford/Chapter VIII, page 618:
"The tablets state that the Habiru came to Canaan via Seir or Edom, and this was the very route of the Israelites under Moses, as defined in the Bible (Numbers 21:4).
Dr. H.R. Hall, former Head of the Department of Egyptian and Assyrian Antiquities of the British Museum in London, from "The Ancient History of the Near East" page 409:
"We may definetly say that in the Tell el-Amarna Letters we have Joshua's conquest seen from the Egyptian point of view." (END Dr. Hall quote)
Rutherford:
"The various Palestinian cities mentioned on the tablets have all been identified and it is significant that there is no reference to Jericho, as that city was knocked out by Joshua at the very first blow at the beginning of his campaigns, and hence was already destroyed before the Tell el-Amarna correspondence begun"
In 1952, Immanuel Velikovsky produced "Ages in Chaos" where he dated the Exodus to have occurred in 1445 BC just a mere 8 years from the Biblical date.
Velikovsky arrived at this date, in part, by dating the Amarna tablets in agreement with the above evidence.
There cannot exist a more objective and unbiased scholarly dating of the Exodus than Velikovsky's. He was an agnostic Jew who had zero belief in miracles or the supernatural. His books offered outrageous natural explanations for miraculous events.
The link below further substantiates how Velikovsky's research has stood the test of time:
http://www.varchive.org/ce/newev.htm
Dr. Gene Scott, September 2004:
"Velikovsky was the greatest scholar of the 20th century because he disproved every egyptologist....that is why he is so hated."
Velikovsky's 1445 BC date fully supports the correct date I have argued - 1453 BC.
Brian Post 1 writes:
Solomon’s reign is calculated via synchronisms with astronomically fixed Assyrian and Babylonian king lists, and this places the Exodus in 1446 BCE, this is the date argued for by the extreme fundamentalist.
Even though some fundamentalists share my date of the Exodus - I am not a fundamentalist. Although Brian is not saying I am a fundie his point in the blue box is faulty.
The error is to equate "undesireables"/fundamentalists with the mid-15th century date. This of course is an "arguing the man" argument which completely evades the Assyrian and Babylonian King lists evidence.
By Brian's logic, because Nazi's embraced Darwinism we must toss the Theory of Evolution.
Brian Post 1 writes:
The next piece of evidence to consider is found in Exodus 1:11 so, "they put slave masters over them to oppress them with forced labour, and they built Pithom and Rameses as store cities for Pharaoh."
There are very few references in the Hebrew Bible that give specific details of the Israelites sojourn in Egypt, but this verse contains two important pieces of historical information. These are the two references to the two cities Pithom and Rameses.
Brian accepts the validity of the historical information provided in Exodus 1:11.
The verse substantiates the existence of two geographic places in Egypt - it does not say Rameses II was Pharoah. If Rameses II was Pharoah why wouldn't the text say so ?
Rutherford/"The Exodus and the Wilderness Journey" pages 625-627:
"Unquestionably "Raamses" is another form of writing the name "Ramesses". But the two cities Pithom and Raamses have now been proved to be much older than the time of Ramesses II (Lods "Israel", page 211).
CONCLUSIONS
Mid-13th century Exodus theory is terminally defective because the position does not account for Hebrew chronological systems of Jubilee and Sabbatic Cycles, Biblical generations, and the well-evidenced Biblical historical chronology between Solomon's reign and the Exodus.
Low-Date theorists arbitrarily ignore the full period of Judges and lack a respectable accounting of this historically documented era.
Low-Date theorists offer a stunted position which relies on a subjective assignment of archaeological dating that evades the Biblical record, but on the other hand, they embrace selective scriptural passages (most out of context and changed without any sensible justification) while ignoring the bulk.
In other words, Low-Date theorists are as such because they NEED the Bible to be incorrect to suit their previously decided agenda.
Reason of Edits: spelling corrections.
Content Edit (9-18-04):
Samuel: (alone) 1069-1058 [12 years] (1 year co-regency with Saul)
The above is now corrected in the post to read [11 years] and not [12 years].
Shamgar: 1242 [1 year]
The above is now corrected in the post with the [1 year] information deleted. Shamgar's year falls within the last year of Ehud and the first year of Deborah and Barak.
The Judges Interval total count of years (355) remains the same and is now accurate.
This message has been edited by WILLOWTREE, 09-18-2004 07:53 PM
This message has been edited by WILLOWTREE, 09-18-2004 09:48 PM
This message has been edited by WILLOWTREE, 09-27-2004 02:00 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Brian, posted 08-10-2004 10:35 AM Brian has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by ramoss, posted 09-17-2004 9:31 AM Cold Foreign Object has replied
 Message 277 by Lysimachus, posted 10-03-2004 6:16 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3066 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 221 of 317 (142948)
09-17-2004 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 220 by ramoss
09-17-2004 9:31 AM


Re: EXODUS DATE: 1453 BC
Do you have a source that isn't a total flake head?
You obviously missed or chose to miss my entire point concerning Velikovsky.
In case of the former I shall repeat it.
Velikovsky is an agnostic Jew. He had zero belief in miracles or the supernatual. This means he could not have any bias. There is no axe to grind for the Bible or christianity. This means, nay, demands that he is objective, and in this context he dated the Exodus in the mid-15th century which exposes the already known bias of every egyptologist in the world.
Your juvenile insults of this giant scholar is typical anger resulting from the knowledge that he, like Schliemann in the 19th century, refuted the status quo single-handedly.
This message has been edited by WILLOWTREE, 09-17-2004 02:18 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by ramoss, posted 09-17-2004 9:31 AM ramoss has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 222 by Rei, posted 09-17-2004 4:14 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied
 Message 229 by ramoss, posted 09-17-2004 5:57 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3066 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 223 of 317 (142959)
09-17-2004 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 222 by Rei
09-17-2004 4:14 PM


Re: EXODUS DATE: 1453 BC
He is only a complete nut to you because he destroys your position, therefore you "argue the man".
By your logic Francis Crick and his space aliens qualifies him as a complete nut but I predict you won't brand him as such because he is an evo hero.
You too are evading the objectivity of Velikovsky and his Exodus date.
Here we have a scholar who DOES NOT believe in miracles yet he is branded a nut only because his research exposes the real nuts.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by Rei, posted 09-17-2004 4:14 PM Rei has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 224 by Rei, posted 09-17-2004 4:39 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3066 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 225 of 317 (142965)
09-17-2004 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 224 by Rei
09-17-2004 4:39 PM


Re: EXODUS DATE: 1453 BC
You are deliberately avoiding the content of my posts.
When and if you recognize my arguments accurately (I didn't say agree) THEN we can commense debating, but until that happens I see no need to waste my time with your disruptive/non sequitor input.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 224 by Rei, posted 09-17-2004 4:39 PM Rei has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 226 by Rei, posted 09-17-2004 4:52 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3066 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 227 of 317 (142981)
09-17-2004 5:17 PM
Reply to: Message 226 by Rei
09-17-2004 4:52 PM


Re: EXODUS DATE: 1453 BC
Glad to see you admit to a mistake - no problem.
I will promptly respond to your forth-coming arguments against the evidence I posted in Message 219
WT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by Rei, posted 09-17-2004 4:52 PM Rei has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 228 by Rei, posted 09-17-2004 5:56 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3066 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 230 of 317 (142996)
09-17-2004 6:09 PM
Reply to: Message 228 by Rei
09-17-2004 5:56 PM


Re: EXODUS DATE: 1453 BC
Courtesy Notice:
My on-line time for the day has expired and I won't be able to respond until tomorrow/Saturday.
Your consistent evasion of my points about Velikovsky is because these arguments are irrefutable.
Maybe you should create another post as the one I am looking at will take no longer than 15 minutes to refute.
Look for me tomorrow.
WT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by Rei, posted 09-17-2004 5:56 PM Rei has not replied

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3066 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 232 of 317 (143027)
09-17-2004 11:09 PM
Reply to: Message 228 by Rei
09-17-2004 5:56 PM


Re: EXODUS DATE: 1453 BC
True, but deceptive. First off, the great mass of evidence unearthed has shown *no* evidence of an influx of a volume of people even a fraction the size of the Israelites, *regardless* of which date you choose. Most notably absent is *any* significant evidence in Sinai, nor any evidence of the supposed Israeli-Egyptian battles as described in the bible. Secondly, the archaeological evidence shows the destruction of various Canaanite cities *all throughout this period*.
IOW, like my Message 219 says you are simply asserting archaeology to be the objective standard that every other avenue of evidence must fall down and bow to.
Message 219
What we have in the Low-Date Theory is selective capricious extraction of certain quotes from the Bible while conspicuously avoiding what the source as a whole offers.
In other words, they are tethered to a diferent anchor of foundational data from which a 13th century date is chosen. This foundational base then grabs and changes certain passages from the Bible to support their position while ignoring the bulk which harms their date.
From: Cambridge Ancient History, Third Edition, Vol.2, Part 2 [1975] Chapter VII "Archaeological Evidence" pages 331,332:
"One must not forget that the interpretations of these finds {in Palestine} has been and still is largely dependant on the school of biblical exegesis to which the excavator adheres."
Low-Date/13th century theorists are tethered to THEIR interpretations of archaeological evidence as the chief source for an Exodus date.
And as we have already seen they also subscribe to a school of biblical exegesis which can be best compared to a butcher shop.
But archaeology does support 1453 BC as my post shows. Low-Date theorists simply ignore every contradicting piece of evidence and assign the destruction of Palestinian cities to Joshua in the 13th century instead of the Judges.
Kadesh-Barnea has turned up no evidence of an encampment. Ezion-geber? The same. Tel Arad, where Israel supposedly fought King Arad? Nothing from the late Bronze Age. Tel Hesbon, where Israel supposedly fought the Amorites? Again, nothing from the Bronze Age. Etc. There have been genetic studies on human remains of the people in the region - their genetics don't change. Cultural artifact styles don't change. Etc. There simply was no exodus.
Thus asserts REI, we all can log off now.
This topic assumes an Exodus happened - did you read the topic title ?
There is voluminous evidence of the Exodus.
If you want to argue whether it happened or not I suggest you go here and knock yourself out:
http://< !--UB EvC Forum: Theory: Why The Exodus Myth Exists -->http://EvC Forum: Theory: Why The Exodus Myth Exists -->EvC Forum: Theory: Why The Exodus Myth Exists< !--UE-->
The Bible was written to record things that the Author wants known. If the Bible did not record such things then they would never be known.
You are exalting an inferior discipline (archaeology) to be THE objective source of truth above all else.
What confirms archaeology ?
And from the Cambridge quote above we see that worldview is the deciding factor in archaeological dating and interpretations.
Your entire approach places the superior source (Bible) to be inferior based upon worldview.
If archaeology isn't confirmed by the Bible then you know why it is just another inferior source of information.
Hydarnes writes:
Message 51 But a lack in archaeological evidence for an Israelite occupation during the 15th century does not automatically prove an absence of such. And it would do skeptics well to remember that the location in Egypt known as Tell el-Maskhouta (identified as the biblical succoth, and the stronghold from which Egypt would launch her campaigns into Palestine and Syria) has yielded no archaeological evidence whatsoever for signs of military buildings, barracks, forts or any other such structures during the 18th and 19th dynasties, notwithstanding the fact that Egyptian records testify to their existence.
The point is just because there may not be archaeological evidence does not mean that the location was not inhabited by certains.
Bible critics constantly chirp about the total lack of Hebrew evidence in Goshen/Nile-Delta.
What they conveniently keep quiet about is the fact that the Nile flooded the Delta regularly thus wiping out the regions ancient history with it. Reasons like this is why the Bible was written - to preserve knowledge that would otherwise be lost. But my post 219 substantiates that archaeology does support the Bible so the point is moot.
The Habiru. Not the Israelites.
This was your first words to my scholarly source confirming the Habiru to be the Hebrews.
May I remind that the OP says concerning this evidence that only scholarly sources will be considered. While your position undoubtedly reflects a school of thought you need to substantiate your dismissal of Habiru not meaning the Hebrews.
The linguistic similarity is not a matter of opinion and it is only rejected because it is so obviously speaking about the Hebrews. Like I've said before the linguistic similarity is a 6th grade IQ test question.
Anti-Bible entities reject linguistic similarity because there is absolutely nothing to gain for their "objective" positions.
and were in general a term for nomadic brigands.
What do you think "Hebrew" means ?
nomad/wanderer etc.etc.
The absolute refusal of opponents to recognize Habiru as the Hebrews is evidence that no amount of evidence will affect them, thus they are not loyal to evidence but dogma.
The Habiru issue reminds me of YEC's and their refusal to accept an old Earth. Creos must bow to an old Earth because the evidence is overwhelming. This recognition does not affect the claims of Genesis but I am off-topic.
May I also remind you that to argue for an Exodus date - any date - AND also take the position "if it happened at all" is a position of paradox.
A paradox is two mutually contradicting realities co-existing at the same time.
IOW, a paradox is a miracle, an indigenous claim of Scripture: Christ: Man and God at the same time in all expressions/Incarnation.
Omnipresence: Two places at the same time. etc.etc.
I find it rather funny that you evos would argue a paradox (if the Exodus happened then....but it really didn't).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by Rei, posted 09-17-2004 5:56 PM Rei has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 233 by Amlodhi, posted 09-18-2004 12:36 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3066 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 234 of 317 (143121)
09-18-2004 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 233 by Amlodhi
09-18-2004 12:36 PM


Re: EXODUS DATE: 1453 BC
I admit your scenario is not a paradox.
BTW, I have not forgotten about your challenge in the "Genesis 22" topic.
WT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by Amlodhi, posted 09-18-2004 12:36 PM Amlodhi has not replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024