Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 0/13 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Why I am creationist
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 46 of 210 (142836)
09-16-2004 9:37 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by arachnophilia
09-16-2004 8:17 PM


I find that we could argue over any biblical passage. How is it that ones I mention aren't valid, but yours are? For example John, --> You speak total opinion. Likewise, you say it is blasphemy that the Word is God, - obviously I disagree.
and while we're on the topic of blasphemy, the christ of the book of john is a blasphemer.
Listen my friend, some believers have strange Theologies that confuse me. You are one of these people - Jar also preaches and teaches some strange ideas. It is best we agree to disagree, I could go into lengthy retorts but I frankly can't be bothered as I didn't intend to.
(MAn! I apologised for the blasphemy thing)
This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 09-16-2004 08:38 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by arachnophilia, posted 09-16-2004 8:17 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by arachnophilia, posted 09-17-2004 2:59 AM mike the wiz has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 47 of 210 (142869)
09-17-2004 2:43 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by jar
09-16-2004 7:59 PM


I think it is more interesting than just Peter.
Why were the other major creators of Christianity purged?
well, i was specifically interested in peter, seeing as how the gospels we do have say that christ left him in charge, yet it wasn't his church to survive.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by jar, posted 09-16-2004 7:59 PM jar has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 48 of 210 (142870)
09-17-2004 2:59 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by mike the wiz
09-16-2004 9:37 PM


I find that we could argue over any biblical passage. How is it that ones I mention aren't valid, but yours are? For example John, --> You speak total opinion. Likewise, you say it is blasphemy that the Word is God, - obviously I disagree.
well, if you wanna use the majority vote standard, john contradicts the other three gospels as far as the way christ spoke of himself.
otherwise, it also contradicts the law of moses. if you had to choose between the two, which would you choose? john, or moses? i chose moses.
Listen my friend, some believers have strange Theologies that confuse me. You are one of these people - Jar also preaches and teaches some strange ideas. It is best we agree to disagree, I could go into lengthy retorts but I frankly can't be bothered as I didn't intend to.
(MAn! I apologised for the blasphemy thing)
if you didn't want debate, this was the wrong board to come to.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by mike the wiz, posted 09-16-2004 9:37 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3048 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 49 of 210 (143140)
09-18-2004 8:15 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by mike the wiz
09-13-2004 10:04 PM


uniformatarianism.
synonym of YEC.
Both simply ignore all the evidence which contradicts their dogma.
The same guys who argue creation with me, argue against Christ. So I must conclude this evo thing is against bibleGod
Mike:
Your above blue-box quote could not of hit the nail on the head any better.
Evos NEED the Bible to be wrong, because contrary to their claims of Divine neutrality their entire theory IS making the declaration that the God of Genesis does not exist.
This denial greatly evidences the foundation of their m.o./deceit, which is the chief characteristic of Satan, who is of course a central personage of the Bible.
I understand if you distance yourself from my comment Mike but deep down I think you agree.
WT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by mike the wiz, posted 09-13-2004 10:04 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by mike the wiz, posted 09-19-2004 9:19 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied
 Message 57 by arachnophilia, posted 09-21-2004 8:49 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 50 of 210 (143254)
09-19-2004 9:19 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Cold Foreign Object
09-18-2004 8:15 PM


I agree that some evolutionists are indeed against the idea of the biblical God, and withold
or reject this truth. And it is evidenced here everyday with the objections to the God of the bible. Mainly, people think that their own morals find that the biblical God is immoral/unjust - and are against any confirming evidence in his favour. This is not a random or rare occurence, but rather a common and voiced truth at this forum. However, evolutionists would rather say that they do not reject the God of the bible, but rather that they deny any credence to the literalism of the bible. Also, many atheists put the bible in the same group as other texts that appear to be of the same religious value to them, and therefore - have no real issue against any specific deity, but rather - they concentrate on trying to falsify the text that has born creationism, of which they dislike as pseudo-science against the ToE. This is an understandable and reasonable position to take, however, many take it one step too far and try to completely get rid of our faith.
So; being evolutionist in itself is to simply accept science, which is perfectly valid, but those born of this other trait, that pits itself against believers in Christ, have earned the extra "ism" --> the addage on "evolution".
Nevertheless, many, many evolutionist here have shown integrity in sticking to the science - which is to back up the ToE, and search for truth and reality in a humble and tolerant fashion. Even people in this thread I consider extremely reasonable and have always kept in the cream of the objectivity group. People like Rei,etc, NosyNed, Schrafinator - these people have not attacked our faith but they have patiently and long sufferingly, tried to show us that the ToE is infact a completely and validly true example of science and objectivety, that is the antithesis of religion, which starts with believed premises. And so, rather than becoming victims of the ridiculous literalism rule, which we need not do - rather we should apreciate the the nature of their fascinating Theory, of which they delve into dilligently and patiently - to uncover the diverse majesty of the animal kingdom, in all it's brilliance. So, to these latter few people, we owe our thanks, and to them - my message number one is the utter foolishness it should be, a farsical parody of a former nitwit, thinking he could have the title of "scientific" from watching a creationism program.
So, this here ends my rant. There is truth to your comments Willowtree, but there is also truth to evolution persons of honest and genuine search for truth, - obeying their senses and looking upon evidences, to ascertain conclusions grounded in blunt and unbiased investigative fact.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 09-18-2004 8:15 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 09-21-2004 8:02 PM mike the wiz has replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 51 of 210 (143342)
09-20-2004 12:29 PM


REQUEST CLOSURE OF THREAD
Dear Admin, can you please shut this one down, it's a waste of space, and there seems to be no theme. Thanks.

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Admin, posted 09-20-2004 12:46 PM mike the wiz has replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 52 of 210 (143346)
09-20-2004 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by mike the wiz
09-20-2004 12:29 PM


Re: REQUEST CLOSURE OF THREAD
I only had time to read the first page of this thread, but it looks fascinating. In a way, you were playing devil's advocate with your former self. Are you sure this thread is played out?
If I reinterpret the thread's title, was there much discussion of why Creationists are Creationists? What do you think differentiates you, who have modified your perspective so as to find some value in some of the science presented here, from those who are actively hostile toward science, or those who view evolution as a sinister anti-Christian plot masquerading as science.
This message has been edited by Admin, 09-20-2004 11:47 AM

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by mike the wiz, posted 09-20-2004 12:29 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by mike the wiz, posted 09-20-2004 1:08 PM Admin has not replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 53 of 210 (143349)
09-20-2004 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Admin
09-20-2004 12:46 PM


Re: REQUEST CLOSURE OF THREAD
Okay Percy, your the boss, if you think the thread has merit I'll go with the flow.
What do you think differentiates you, who have modified your perspective so as to find some value in some of the science presented here, from those who are actively hostile toward science, or those who view evolution as a sinister anti-Christian plot masquerading as science.
Wow. Good question. I think the difference might be in how determined the creationismist is to take the bible literally, and how undetermined the creationist is, in observing a historical text as scientific, which is - in my opinion, the wrongful use of it. This might be relevant to that topic we had it out in Percy, "Reasons to believe"...
So; I think a creationismist has a more strict scientific outlook concerning poetic and mysterious books like Genesis, while creationist are more objective and logical, in that they open the door to other possibilities of creation, knowing that God is unlimited in his unfathomable ways.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Admin, posted 09-20-2004 12:46 PM Admin has not replied

  
kendemyer
Inactive Member


Message 54 of 210 (143367)
09-20-2004 3:36 PM


to: mike the wiz
I would not be so quick to give pure motives to professed atheist who assert the macroevolutionary position in specific cases.
Here is a great quote:
A man always has two reasons for doing anything: a good reason and the real reason.
- J. P. Morgan

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3048 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 55 of 210 (143764)
09-21-2004 8:02 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by mike the wiz
09-19-2004 9:19 PM


Nevertheless, many, many evolutionist here have shown integrity in sticking to the science - which is to back up the ToE, and search for truth and reality in a humble and tolerant fashion. Even people in this thread I consider extremely reasonable and have always kept in the cream of the objectivity group. People like Rei,etc, NosyNed, Schrafinator - these people have not attacked our faith but they have patiently and long sufferingly, tried to show us that the ToE is infact a completely and validly true example of science and objectivety,
The three evos you mention are anything but what you say from my experience with them, except Ned one time honestly admitted he didn't care about God.
The evos I respect are: Quetzal, Loudmouth, Lam, and Berberry. There are a few more of course but my mind is suddenly blank and I have to go.
Rei ?
Must be a typo !

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by mike the wiz, posted 09-19-2004 9:19 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by mike the wiz, posted 09-21-2004 8:25 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 56 of 210 (143772)
09-21-2004 8:25 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Cold Foreign Object
09-21-2004 8:02 PM


I stick by what I said WillowTree. Just be honest, evos aren't as "evil" as some make out.
Rei offered an example of how evolution could glorify God to theistic evos, so she kinda is a polite baba, a bit like Schraff, I find them both intelligent and polite goodly children of goodliness. Likewise with Ned the guydude, but hey, I don't want to judge tho WT, let us now refrain from our naming of names, lest God utterly smite us to bits,, that our tongues become confused and Brad posesses us.
Who? Me? Nuts? --> Tis confusion you speak, Demons have entered your tongue against me!
(He hopes this will end the none-themed topic)
Unseul is goodly, and Asgara. Can you deny it?
Yet Dan is against me! and I would even suggest a Dan ban! But he will not succeed in getting me to hate him, I will even love him if he hates me even more I tell you! Ye, I tell you if he calls me all the names under the sun - I shall still not be against him! Bless Dan I pray!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 09-21-2004 8:02 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 57 of 210 (143776)
09-21-2004 8:49 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Cold Foreign Object
09-18-2004 8:15 PM


Evos NEED the Bible to be wrong, because contrary to their claims of Divine neutrality their entire theory IS making the declaration that the God of Genesis does not exist.
which god of which genesis?
genesis 1:1-2:4 and genesis 2:4-4:26 present very different creation stories.
the first one, probably from the p source tells a 7 day creation story, with animals created before man, and man and woman created together. god creates by speaking, and is refered to as god. the second, from the j source, tells of a creation with no reference to time, is much mroe poetically written, and describes man being created first, then the animals, then the woman. god creates by forming out of the ground, and is refered to by name.
evo's don't need to contradict the bible. the bible does that for itself just fine.
This denial greatly evidences the foundation of their m.o./deceit, which is the chief characteristic of Satan
i heard an idea on this board that satan influenced the writing of the bible mroe than god. afterall, the serpent tells the truth when god lies...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 09-18-2004 8:15 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by mike the wiz, posted 09-21-2004 9:30 PM arachnophilia has replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 58 of 210 (143784)
09-21-2004 9:30 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by arachnophilia
09-21-2004 8:49 PM


God didn't lie. Because of sin - our bodies must die.
Because of us and satan's lie - we have a fallen world, a world that obeys sin and satan. The bigger lie, was to imply that this present world and all of it's evil - would be beneficial to us. That was the lie.
And now we can clearly see that all contradictions come from those who are a contradiction. For they all say to the potter, what have you made?" Likewise, they turn to the parent and say, "what have you begotten"? So they are children that say "we are not children" - yet they are children.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by arachnophilia, posted 09-21-2004 8:49 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by arachnophilia, posted 09-21-2004 10:08 PM mike the wiz has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 59 of 210 (143796)
09-21-2004 10:08 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by mike the wiz
09-21-2004 9:30 PM


God didn't lie.
look, you're gonna have to deal with this sooner or later. according to genesis, god lied. he said, and i quote: "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. "
adam ate, and lived another 130 years. now, i'm quite thankful god lied, because if that had been the truth i wouldn't be here, would i?
Because of sin - our bodies must die
tell me where in genesis 3 you see that?
here's the punishment i see for adam's sin:
quote:
And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed [is] the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat [of] it all the days of thy life; Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou [art], and unto dust shalt thou return.
it says he's cursed until he dies. his death seems to be a prearranged condition. god later says that in order to be immortal, adam would have to eat from the tree of life. it's not a condition brought on by the sin -- the curse was.
Because of us and satan's lie
satan's not in that story.
in fact, he's not anywhere in the books of the torah. he doesn't really appear much of anywhere until job.
you really can't just keep making stuff up, i know what the bible says.
And now we can clearly see that all contradictions come from those who are a contradiction. For they all say to the potter, what have you made?" Likewise, they turn to the parent and say, "what have you begotten"? So they are children that say "we are not children" - yet they are children.
trying your hand at being cryptic? doesn't explain away the blatant contradictions between the two stories.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by mike the wiz, posted 09-21-2004 9:30 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by mike the wiz, posted 09-21-2004 10:20 PM arachnophilia has replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 60 of 210 (143799)
09-21-2004 10:20 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by arachnophilia
09-21-2004 10:08 PM


Listen, God said to Adam he would die, he did.
We also die because according to the bible - we prefer sin and death.
Our bodies die, according to the NT, because of sin, but we are promised that God's Spirit will make us rise again.
in fact, he's not anywhere in the books of the torah. he doesn't really appear much of anywhere until job.
That's true, satan isn't. Likewise, Christ isn't literally mentioned in the OT, (by name). But all that matters is that the serpent was of the world and the serpent was against God. THIS is sin, to be against God. Now we know from where the serpent came. Ofcourse, that's if you believe in a literal serpent. Personally I find it hard to believe in a literal serpent, but the meaning of the story still remains.
you really can't just keep making stuff up, i know what the bible says.
Like what>? I am puzzled at you saying this.
trying your hand at being cryptic?.
What did I say that mystified you?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by arachnophilia, posted 09-21-2004 10:08 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by arachnophilia, posted 09-21-2004 11:03 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024