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Author Topic:   Natural Selection
axial soliton
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 50 (14335)
07-28-2002 9:50 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Percy
07-13-2002 2:27 PM


Howdy,
two fragments of information bear upon this line of reasoning and indicate that culture may have taken over from natural selection in the case of human evolution.
--Around 30,000 BCE, a multidisciplinary review of data postulates there was a choke point in the human population. Maybe 1,000 individuals survived a planetary catastrophe. That is a small gene pool to start with. The presentation did not indicate how spread out these individuals were over the continents. They say it indicates why there is no speciation in humans. Maybe this means these individuals were local to each other. Since we are travelers and lovers by nature, one might think this worked against speciation in the period since then. This is a summary from several discovery channel presentations and they don't list references.
--Recently, underwater archeology has come from nowhere to grab the spotlight away from mainstream land-lubbers. Settlements on the Black Sea Plain now under 600 feet of water must be 7-9,000 years old. The structures under water off Yonaguni Island were underwater for at least that long, and maybe 10,000 years old. But, they are megalithic and carved into foundation rock. Other examples.....
Global travel by our direct ancestors in periods before 3,500BCE may have been extensive since we now know they had tools and technology long before Egyptian and Mesopotamian settlements indicate.
Hope this contributes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Percy, posted 07-13-2002 2:27 PM Percy has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by John, posted 07-28-2002 11:06 PM axial soliton has replied
 Message 30 by gene90, posted 07-29-2002 1:15 PM axial soliton has not replied

axial soliton
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 50 (14338)
07-28-2002 10:16 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Percy
07-14-2002 6:49 PM


Here is a thought experiment that demonstrates how "perception" manipulates the chances of something happening depending upon from whch end of the scenario one looks:
A man walks across a room 100 paces wide. Each foot-fall is marked. When he gets to the other side he turns around to see the long line of foot-falls. When asked if he can exactly retrace his footfalls, he responds, "of course". Then, mysteriously, all the floor of the building falls away except the foot-falls.
The point. Walking across was matter-of-fact. Retracing the exact steps looks very difficult. A scientist has to see the big picture and understand how things looked from the past coming forward to the present. A superficial analysis from the present looking back would conclude intelligent design.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Percy, posted 07-14-2002 6:49 PM Percy has not replied

axial soliton
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 50 (14529)
07-30-2002 9:14 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by John
07-28-2002 11:06 PM


Sorry you were not impressed. However for the benefit of others who might be interested, allow me to exercise a new-found skill.
This head does not look to me like it was carved by currents.
I think this is the second head, but am not certain of that. It has some sort of rounded arm protruding on the base. Artistic mix of rounded and sharp features. More of these types of structures have been uncovered on the island. No currents up there, though.
This is another view of one of the heads from a distance and a different angle. There is another one of these on the other side of a 70x70 foot square flat that looks custom made to be a stage.middle
All of these must be attributed to the Japanese professor, who has been ignored by western mainstream archeology for years. That only one western archeologist has come to this site seems awkward. They really should investigate. Anyway, he worked as a guide for an underwater film team from Discovery TV to film the area. The people who took the pictures ended up giving positive testimonials as part of the end analysis. I guess this is one of those times when you have to experience something before dismissing it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by John, posted 07-28-2002 11:06 PM John has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by John, posted 07-30-2002 10:07 PM axial soliton has not replied

axial soliton
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 50 (14567)
07-31-2002 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by William E. Harris
07-30-2002 7:01 PM


Complicated question, and it could also have been equally asked in reverse. There needs to be an expert opinion to have a good starting point for discussion.
My speculation is that a few groups survived some global event in a well defined area. A pocket of relative "Eden". If they could not venture away from each other for say 100 years, maybe the groups interbread. If on the other hand, the groups were spread out and separated by this event, there would seem to me the basis for more differentiation than there is.
In my increasingly lengthy life, culture and religion have been the most significant variables in human affairs. People have been poor for ages, but insult their culture (if French) or their religion, and look out. Until the last century, culture was something that separated people even within the same skin color. Religion has caused catastrophic loss of life and property. Maybe the same was true before the proposed event.
It seems today as though culture and religion have become their own human "natural selection" processes. A kind of second-order thing based on sentience rather than ability to scratch around for food. In a bright side to culture as a natural selection process, and from the male perspective, if anyone has the opportunity to have lunch in downtown Tokyo at an outside cafe on one of the plazas near the office buildings, take it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by William E. Harris, posted 07-30-2002 7:01 PM William E. Harris has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by John, posted 07-31-2002 6:23 PM axial soliton has replied

axial soliton
Inactive Member


Message 39 of 50 (14621)
08-01-2002 3:34 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by John
07-31-2002 6:23 PM


I have been missing sleep reading, reviewing, and scanning a seemingly endless stream of online data pertaining to prehistory. Trying to catch up to the others here. There is no way to check the veracity of discover channel or history channel, except that when they infrequntly present in my area, it is only annoying, not wrong.
Clearly, a discussion of background is needed. And, maybe we should deposit links in some common place for others to review so space is used efficiently, links are easy to find, and the the on-going discussion isn't disrupted by lost links. Data seem to point to a series of events, the first about 35kBCE, one about 8kBCE, one at 7kBCE, one about 5kBCE. Others may exist but are not well supported by data that I came across so far. The correlation is between sea levels, CO2 in the atmosphere, ash in ice core layers, local magnetic flux direction and density as frozen in old lava flows, rate of sediment deposition, on and on. It seems to me that Neanderthal co-existed with our ancestors for a period of maybe 50k years, then something happened 37,000 years ago that humans survived and Neanderthals didn't. I'm betting it was a bitterly cold period. Maybe it got down to we eat bugs, worms, and even each other, but they wouldn't or couldn't. They may have been philosophically ahead of their time. Meaning that survival from day-to-day was the main issue, not how many stars there were in the night sky and who put them there. In life-threatening situations, an instinct emerges that changes ones whole outlook on life. One feels a compelling need to live through the present moment. Nothing else matters.
The next event looks like an extremely sudden disruption in the slow warming cycle about 10,000 years ago. Like us, some significant proportion of our ancestors probably lived near the sea due to food, water, and housing imperatives. I think Northern Europe was unavailable for habitation and that the Gobi was blossoming. This is why the Yonaguni structures on the island and under the nearby water might be cruxial. People with substantial technology lived along the coast and had to run for their lives when the sea level suddenly changed. Well, maybe over a couple of years the sea level caused them to have to migrate to areas that were higher so they wouldn't get trapped on "islands" that used to be the mountains behind their homes. This must have disrupted cultures everywhere. Because of the rapidity of the spread of mDNA having high correlation around the Pacific basin before this 10,000 year-ago event, I'm betting there was substantial sea travel, exploration, and trade. Not after. No wonder every single surviving set of myths has something about a flood. Suppose the elders picked the wrong direction in which to flee. Oops!
One matter is perplexing. The oldest skeletal remains in the Gobi trade routes are caucasian, not asian. This is big, but how does it fit?
The sea levels kept going up. Imagine if you make your living from the sea! After several generations knowing nothing but old stories of how great things used to be and periodically moving inland from the advancing ocean, the new younger leaders would be more concerned about the future, than old farts musing about the past. At about 9,000 years-ago, the Atlantic broke through Gibralter and flooded the immense Mediterranean Plain. That must have been horrific. For some really strange reason, archeologists have never looked underwater anywhere on the planet until forced to recently by non-archeologists. The now-underwater edges of the Mediterranean should be explored. It was probably a fresh-water lake before the Gibralter event. The amount of salt water pouring into the Mediterranean may have balanced the amount of melt water for a period of years. The shifting salinity due to these changes must have played havoc with global weather for a thousand years. When the Mediterannean reached sea level and glaciers kept retreating, the level of the ocean began rising again. The next event was the breakthrough at Bosporus into the Black Sea. Again, those people had to run for their lives. Woe be to them if they did not run in the right direction. 300 feet of total ocean level rise is reported.
Now the real speculation. Maybe the 35kBCE event nearly wiped out humans except for groups fleeing to the Gobi. 1,000 individuals was the number postulated by experts who produced a Discovery special. The Neanderthal groups stuck to their place come hell or high water. Unfortunately for them, both happened. Maybe the pocket of relative paradise recorded in so many myths as Eden was the escape-to place; Gobi. Relatively uniform weather, rain, warm temperatures, good harvests, and space to settle. Nothing good lasts forever. I would postulate that after the miserable beginnings passed into history, they got tired of each other. First thing you know, Quebec Province tries to declare its independance and force its dialect on everyone else. The confereration fell apart due to population strains, limited resources, and the need to have some distance between your camp fire and your neighbors. Just because people are the way they are, this breakup probably happened over one generation when explorers reported distant habitable land no longer covered by glaciers.
It is at least as good a story as Noah's.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by John, posted 07-31-2002 6:23 PM John has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by John, posted 08-02-2002 1:12 AM axial soliton has replied

axial soliton
Inactive Member


Message 41 of 50 (14766)
08-02-2002 11:28 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by John
08-02-2002 1:12 AM


You know, I have been looking for a an interbreeding link between humans and Neanderthals because there is one activity that is universal. If you or someone can point to a site that objectively presents actual data on Neanderthal behavior, it would sure help. For now, there is strong data that they didn't, at:
Fossil Hominids: mitochondrial DNA
It took some time to find this again, but it is worth it. The mDNA results are strong data. And, the molecular biologists seem so sure of themselves about mDNA passing only mother to children (mother-to-daughter theoretically traces back to Eve). So this means a human would have to inseminate a Neanderthal woman for the Neanderthal mDNA to exist today. Maybe that would be like a human/Klingon engagement, but who knows. This is one of those times when the data and observations don't match. We know something rather sudden happened to the Neanderthals. They are not mentioned in the Bible, unless Goliath was Neanderthal. I haven't found anything on them in any near-prehistory texts. There are two possibilities. I speculate that there is an undiscovered group of individuals carrying mDNA from the Neanderthals. Maybe this could be the Basques, for example. Then again, a male Neanderthal and female human would not show up in mDNA history (if those biologists are sure of themselves). In this case, maybe those people I saw were partly Neanderthal.
With the bitterly cold idea, one thought is that food became scarce. With humans, some like it hot, others don't. When the climate changed in Europe and Central Asia, humans might migrate as suits them. Where humans have a will to scratch out a living anywhere, perhaps the Neanderthal has a more advanced philosophy of life. After all, they made tools, wore cloths, talked, had rituals, etc. Maybe even before us. Though this is complete speculation, there might be a forensic component to matching potential/expected behaviors of a highly sentient population to what data we do have. It may be that they wanted to stay in the region in which they were born and their family heritage was entombed, no matter what the climate did. These days, humans are like that. Not nomad any more. It may be that, like other philosophically advanced present-day humans, they would not eat certain animals. If the other animals were already eaten and the particular one they wouldn't eat was all that was left, then the humans survive and the Neanderthal have a crisis deciding whether to throw away their philosophy or go to the next life. I do not believe there is any writing or painting known to be Neanderthal. Or, maybe there is and the experts don't know what they are looking at, yet. So, a behavior forensics expert might be what is needed to get the next part of the picture.
One possibility, if we can get completely away from the homocentric ego, is that since the Neanderthal evolved way before us that they civilized during the 100,000 year period between the great ice sheet advances. Our rags-to-riches story is maybe 10 or 15,000 years. Theirs may have been comparable to ours. Maybe humans were like smart chimpanzees to the Neanderthal and they allowed us to coexist. After their civilization fell into disarray and then decay, humans picked up the ball. Our philosophical institutions have certainly been lacking through our ascent. Maybe it is a common trait in the natural selection of sentient animals. That sounds like a dangerous new winnowing element and a new thread.
On the underwater archeology, you are probably right. Cost is a major factor. In my searching, it seems all the groups who target an underwater site and then conduct their search, find something extraordinary. It is as if mainstrean archeology and anthropology are all daydreaming, again. I hesitate to list what I have found by looking because much is preliminary. Two examples besides Yonaguni are the stones from the lighthouse at Alexandria (one of the 7 wonders of the ancient world) and the unusual images found using high-definition side-looking sonar off the southwestern edge of Cuba by the Canadian lady. Talk about teeter-totter (another discussion)! The images showing symmetrical structures are from a depth of 2,200 feet. What if they are buildings and streets as their scale and size suggest? Or, maybe nature put a regular array of structures in the middle of a sandy flat plain. She has found it difficult to get funding, despite extraordinary preliminary results.
Something happened 37,000 years ago.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by John, posted 08-02-2002 1:12 AM John has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by John, posted 08-04-2002 1:22 AM axial soliton has replied

axial soliton
Inactive Member


Message 44 of 50 (14843)
08-05-2002 2:49 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by John
08-04-2002 1:22 AM


One paper I reviewed said that certain sites of mDNA mutate rapidly while the rest of the molecule is fairly consistent. This could be a relevant piece of data, now. I did not think it was relevant at the time and so did not save his name or a pointer to the paper. The man's introduction was given with great deference and the paper seemed like 1968. Maybe it is widely known.
WordPress › Error
The present day" DNA is where the author tries to tie things together.
--If mDNA is pointing at a recent out-of-Africa migration, and DNA is pointing at a multi-regional development, then the picture has to get big enough so that both could be true.
--African and non-African populations diverged 52,000 years ago, per mDNA.
--38,500 years ago, the non-Africans began expanding in population.
--This is suspiciously close to the 37,000 year ago figure that summarizes sudden dramatic climate change. Humans began expanding in population about 1,500 years before the climate shifted dramatically colder in Europe and Asia.
--He mentions a severe bottleneck in the human population, but presumes it is because a small sub-group of humans split off and prospered while all the rest died. This seems incomplete because it is more likely that the small group would die out than the large group. The scenario presented elsewhere that the climate nearly resulted in the extinction of humans has more substance to it.
--The first anatomically modern humans appeared in Europe 100,000 years ago, according to the fossil record. If the earlier statements in the paper are also true, these were pre-split Africans. These Africans did not prosper and populate the region. They did not compete well with the Neanderthal. Out-competition did not happen until 14,500 years after the split (52,000 and 38,500 years ago).
--The African humans then co-existed with the Neanderthal for 48,000 years, but did not do well. The data are incomplete on the matter. If post-split, anatomically modern, humans appear in Europe 38,500 years ago, then their fast ascent came despite the Neanderthal. Then the bottleneck happened. Then the great expansion coinciding with extinction of the Neanderthal.
--One thought is that humans became hungry enough to hunt Neanderthal. Neanderthal were better adapted to the cold, but humans are like cockroaches when they have to be.
--Y chromosome data support mDNA data with similar, but consistently older, dates. Adam lived 59,000 years ago and the split happened 44,000 years ago.
--Does anyone besides me have a problem with the fact that half-life of an isotope is far more predictable than mtDNA mutation rate?
--There is additional discussion of how mutation rates and chromosome and intron variations point to widely varying dates, population growth, population decline, and steady-state population, all at the same time.
--To get to a bigger picture where all of these genetic variations can be true, there need be 2 key factors. One, the climate changes caused the humans to migrate to anything green. Many migrated off the genetic cliff. Those who survived found themselves among other groups in one region. I postulate central Asia, and maybe the Gobi area. Two, as with mDNA, the different genes, chromosomes, introns, etc., have a variable mutation rate because they have a spread of chemical stability. It is doubtful that a Garden of Eden story would survive when there are only 1,000 humans, but the lifeboat region to which these humans migrated and that became their Eden might qualify. Maybe the Neanderthal were not welcome in this Eden except as food.
--As I recall, there is a path back to central Asia for the forbearers of almost all languages both in existence, and extinct. Has there been any work to see where the lines cross in central Asia? They just may cross at this lifeboat.
I was making a side comment about Goliath. However, The fossil record is incomplete and the last Neanderthal may have existed in separated small groups. Or maybe, they became laborers to humans during the rapid expansion of human population after the recovery from the 37,000 year ago bottleneck. It seems incomplete to say the Neanderthal went extinxt 35,000 years ago, period. I wonder if some Neanderthal survived as slaves.
During the 48,000 years when the mDNA record seems to say pre-split humans co-existed with the Neanderthal, our forbearers were not successful. The fossil record is again incomplete as during the decline of the Neanderthal. It just does not seem correct that a species smarter than us never developed a civilization. They had a longer opportunity than we have had to do it. Maybe the finding that humans did not do well during that 48,000-year period is a signpost.
Since all of this took place when the oceans were about 300 feet lower than today, the big picture might become more integrated upon continued underwater exploration. The mainstream will eventually overcome its proclivities for inertia and include the now-proven water erosion and re-carving marks on the Sphinx. The problem with the original structure being 10,000 years old requires change of thinking. Why doesn't it bother any of the experts that Cheops pyramid is the only one without hieroglyphics on the interior? To my way of thinking, Humans out-competed the Neanderthal, picked up the ball, and built a civilization before the flooding events of 12,000 to 10,000 years ago.
http://www.jules.org/news-in-brief(4-97).html
The Neanderthals were musical 50,000 years ago. Abstract thought was an every day occurrence. They made musical instruments while our ancestors made stone tools. Another signpost.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by John, posted 08-04-2002 1:22 AM John has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by John, posted 08-07-2002 12:41 AM axial soliton has replied
 Message 47 by Joe Meert, posted 08-10-2002 7:44 AM axial soliton has replied

axial soliton
Inactive Member


Message 46 of 50 (15125)
08-10-2002 1:51 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by John
08-07-2002 12:41 AM


My first response to your post went into the bit bucket right in front of my eyes. I immediately got back at Mr. Gates by hitting the power button and walking away. Sorry about the delay. microsoft
quote:
Note that the author makes the point that mtDNA, due to its high mutation rate, may only be a short term indicator -- less than 50k years. Thus it could be misleading.
Potentially. However, this is not the mainstream view. There needs to be more archeological data taken and analyzed that can be dated a second way. For example, one paper, whose link is now lost to me, said certain sites on mtDNA were prone to accelerated mutation while most of the molecule were linear in its rate (he said words that added up to mean linear). I guess this is the analog to the finding that C14 was not linearly made in the atmosphere. Will there be an assay developed that can isolate DNA fragments from archeological finds and model the original DNA molecule? Nothing like decompiling the original code.
quote:
But you are saying almost the same thing. Climatic change could have been why one group prospered and the rest didn't.
This doesn't show up in any archeological finds that I know of.
Well, not exactly the same thing and the difference could be important. First a couple of axioms. Human nature has not changed for as long as there is anything written about humans. Let's presume humans acted human at a point 50kya. Humans have a variety of mental skill levels. When I was in the Marines, I worked with some Army soldiers with IQs of a rock. These guys did not have the mental acuity to figure out much more than what they were told. Thank God I was in the Marines. These human aspects are relevant to the groups of humans making their way out of Africa and then spreading. Humans ranged everywhere in the European and Asian continents within maybe 10k years of coming out of Africa. Neanderthals came out of Africa about 250k years before the humans (drawing a line up the middle of the papers on this). They did not range widely. The paper with the limits of their movement is lost but they stopped somewhere in south Russia moving east. Their world view must have been to not rock the boat. Our world view changes by the generation. So, I am thinking the Neanderthals, rugged as they were, would not allow themselves to adapt to the cockroach philosophy that humans seem to use so well. People who develop their world view after deep abstract thought do not necessarily care what the world is doing around them. Neanderthals were abstract thinkers 53kya that we know of. Some humans by personality live off the land, scavenge what is easy and move on. Other humans seem to like to stick around and manage things. Just the opposite. I did not find any references for Neanderthal farming during the period through 20kya when most believe they went extinct as a race. This sets up the contest for which race will survive a global climate change year-to-year during the ice age that ended about 12kya. I speculate the Neanderthal could not survive on their own because humans in the valley compete for what food remains and play dirty politics, besides. As for humans, I speculate that when food in a valley became too scarce, they moved to another valley, and another and another, until they starved to death or found eden. Since canabalism is well documented in human history, why not consider it under these circumstances? After all, the Neanderthal are not us, who cares if there is one less?
It takes some insight, analysis, and smart use of data to figure out which way to migrate and how to adapt. This is bad news for the slow human thinkers. I am thinking that when the climate takes from one area, it gives to another. There was a relative eden and the humans found it in several small groups, while the Neanderthal didn't except for individuals or very small groups. The reasons the Neanderthal race diminished so rapidly and the humans survived the same environment are probably systemic. How several phenomena played together, rather than some single big idea. Maybe this eden was in the gobi area, or in the Tigris-Euphrates area, but is one plausible scenario for the bottleneck.
quote:
Hungry for some flesh are ya?
And you aren't? It must be barbecued over real charcoal, served with cold beer from a microbrewry and consumed while watching football. I don't mean the football played elsewhere that is cut off at the knees. I mean American football.
quote:
The dates are not rock solid. There probably were Neanderthal roaming around for awhile after our last record of them.
and
quote:
Laborers doing what? Slave labor is a drawback in hunter-gatherer societies. It only becomes valuable at civilization level- or near to it- under certain conditions.
In my experience, life is a study of near-infinite shades of coloration. Not black and white. It does not seem reasonable to me that the Neanderthal died out with the last woman starving to death on a hill overlooking the Atlantic in Portugal. It is more likely that humans and Neanderthal coexisted until the end. Coexistence in human terms means that our ancestors used the Neanderthal to benefit themselves. Slavery, virtual or actual, comes to mind. Sorry to say.
quote:
Where did this come from? How do you know they were smarter than we are?
I have found numerous references to Neanderthal art and music once I figured out how to look for it. There is a site where a French guy recently carved a bone from a 50,000 year old bear in replica to the Neanderthal flute found that dated to 53kya. The melodies he made were haunting. It was an incredible and satisfying experience to here him play this Neanderthal flute. There are no references to human flutes at that time. In fact, there are references to humans learning how to make flutes from the Neanderthal. I found one of the lost links:
American Association for the Advancement of Science Meeting 2000
Here is another:
Science NetLinks | American Association for the Advancement of Science
Sphinx. The links I previously found were more primary in that they were presentations of data, not post-facto summaries by others. This guy in your link tries to pull everything he can find together. The date of the Sphinx construction is important in the big picture, just as the underwater Yonaguni structures and their construction are important. A geologist said the Sphinx erosion happened by being under water, not by contact with sand. So, further data are needed to support development of a more integrated picture. But water erosion is a no-no for the present mainstream scenario.
quote:
Boy you jump around don't you?
Cheops was first. It was a tomb designed to protect the body of a king and all of his possessions. It didn't work. Later builders resorted to magic-- heiroglyphic spells. Not to mention a possible change of cultural ideas.
It is hard to believe that Cheops was the only pharoah without an ego. There was no burial chamber in this pyramid, as I recall. The sarcophagus found in other pyramids was missing here. Hard to believe thieves stole a stone box. To put the picture together requires looking at all that was going on in a time period.
quote:
Where is the evidence of this civilization. Civilizations leave BIG foot-prints.
Bigfoot is discussed in another forum. Just kidding. Do we know how to look for civilizations?
This is a link that creationists will not like:
http://members.aol.com/TeacherNet/PreHistory.html
General data:
http://www.bigbend.edu/soc/evolution/evolpage.htm
Where have the creationists gone?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by John, posted 08-07-2002 12:41 AM John has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by John, posted 08-10-2002 12:27 PM axial soliton has not replied

axial soliton
Inactive Member


Message 49 of 50 (15158)
08-10-2002 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Joe Meert
08-10-2002 7:44 AM


Here are some other contemporaneous sources to help you out:
American Association for the Advancement of Science Meeting 2000
Here is the one about the 53kya flute and how it was copied by a flutist using a 50kya bone from a cave bear as source material.
Under Construction webster.sk.ca
This site has a drawing of the same Neanderthal flute and under one of the links at the bottom, a discussion of the circumstances of flute-making. These people look very serious about the science of the flute and music
If the Discover article were truly a coincidental hoax, it is a very cruel mockery and peculiar topic to choose to perpetrate misdirection. I found this link which indicates who might start such a hoax and who would gain from it.
Page not found - Reasons to Believe
What do creationists feel they have such a big stake in Neanderthal art? http://www.csfpittsburgh.org/neand.html the text at the bottom is illuminating.
Here: Just a moment...
is another discussion of Neanderthal and human art. What comes across to me as I learn more and more about the topic is that most of the community is homocentric. Though scientific in their argument, the context is biased toward humans. I hope these people who are so sure only humans have the art spark haven't been trampling earlier art at their digs. The Spanish Conquistadors did their best to ruin the cultures in the New World. Destroyed their art, history, religion, and writing, while stealing their precious metals. The Portugese failed in their attempt to do this with Japan. One reading of human history is that colonialization by "superior" Europeans continued until the World Wars of the last century allowed American ideals to surface. Perhaps this conquistador trait is a model for how the first waves of humans in Europe interacted with Neanderthal inhabitants. I'm not going to make any inferences about the religion of all these "superior" Europeans. I believe human nature is the key to the motive.
Was this Discover Magazine article just a cruel coincidence?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Joe Meert, posted 08-10-2002 7:44 AM Joe Meert has not replied

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