Natural Selection

[QUOTE]Originally posted by axial soliton:
[B]The structures under water off Yonaguni Island were underwater for at least that long, and maybe 10,000 years old. But, they are megalithic and carved into foundation rock.[/quote][/b]I saw the Yonaguni Island show. I was not impressed. I looked it up. Apparently not a lot of scientists are impressed. True, the rock formations off of Yanuguni are impressive but look like rock formations, not like pyramids or monoliths.------------------
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Originally posted by William E. Harris:
If the population of the human line preceding the catastophy was large, why did this not deter evolution

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It would, in the sense of slowing things down (assuming the large population interbred)

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and if the number following the catastrophy was small, why did this not stimulate evolution?

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Population size won't stimulate mutation, which is a major factor. A small population can change more rapidly than a large one though.I don't understand your questions in the context of this debate. Can you clarify?

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Would someone explain to me why a recent recessive gene mutation for Tay-Sach's disease could proliferate

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Just guessing but perhaps there was a strong pressure within the Jewish community-- historically at least-- that put the population into a culturally limited breeding pool.

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but new genes appearing in Ashkenazi Jews, say for increased computational ability, could not proliferate the same way to produce a new evolutionary step?

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What new genes for increased computational ability?------------------
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Originally posted by axial soliton:
Sorry you were not impressed. However for the benefit of others who might be interested, allow me to exercise a new-found skill.

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The first head photo you posted looks much better than anything I saw on the show. It looks to have been colorized or something.The other pictures, I agree are interesting, but the monolith as a whole just looks like a rock formation. I could probably be convinced that a few features were carved, but even that I am not convinced of at the moment.------------------
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Originally posted by axial soliton:
My speculation is that a few groups survived some global event in a well defined area. A pocket of relative "Eden". If they could not venture away from each other for say 100 years, maybe the groups interbread. If on the other hand, the groups were spread out and separated by this event, there would seem to me the basis for more differentiation than there is.

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If you are talking about a flood six thousand years ago, you have nowhere enough time to see significant adaptation-- especially since human adaptation is largely cultural (as you noted) and has been for many thousands of years.------------------
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Originally posted by axial soliton:
It seems to me that Neanderthal co-existed with our ancestors for a period of maybe 50k years, then something happened 37,000 years ago that humans survived and Neanderthals didn't.

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Some theories have the Neanderthal breeding with modern humans instead of being replaced. Just a thought...

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I'm betting it was a bitterly cold period.

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The Neandarthal were cold adapted.

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Meaning that survival from day-to-day was the main issue, not how many stars there were in the night sky and who put them there. In life-threatening situations, an instinct emerges that changes ones whole outlook on life. One feels a compelling need to live through the present moment. Nothing else matters.

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The Neandarthal were rugged as all heck as well. I'd bet for them in a shear brute force fight. Something else shifted the odds. I'd bet it was a more complicated and adaptable culture.

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For some really strange reason, archeologists have never looked underwater anywhere on the planet until forced to recently by non-archeologists.

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The reason isn't all that strange. Underwater archeology is extremely difficult and much more dangerous and time consuming than terrestrial archeology. And the technology didn't really exist until SCUBA.------------------
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Originally posted by axial soliton:
You know, I have been looking for a an interbreeding link between humans and Neanderthals because there is one activity that is universal. If you or someone can point to a site that objectively presents actual data on Neanderthal behavior, it would sure help. For now, there is strong data that they didn't, at:
Fossil Hominids: mitochondrial DNA

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I am not convince that this is settled. WordPress › Error

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They are not mentioned in the Bible, unless Goliath was Neanderthal. I haven't found anything on them in any near-prehistory texts.

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There wouldn't be any mention. Neanderthal ceased to exist many tens of thousands of years too soon.

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I do not believe there is any writing or painting known to be Neanderthal.

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There are paintings and such actually. No webpage found at provided URL: http://www.neanderthal.de/e_thal/pg_40.htm

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One possibility, if we can get completely away from the homocentric ego, is that since the Neanderthal evolved way before us that they civilized during the 100,000 year period between the great ice sheet advances.

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There is no evidence of anything approaching civiliation in Neanderthal culture.

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Theirs may have been comparable to ours. Maybe humans were like smart chimpanzees to the Neanderthal and they allowed us to coexist. After their civilization fell into disarray and then decay, humans picked up the ball.

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This should show up in the archealogical records. It doesn't/------------------
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Originally posted by axial soliton:

The present day" DNA is where the author tries to tie things together.
--If mDNA is pointing at a recent out-of-Africa migration, and DNA is pointing at a multi-regional development, then the picture has to get big enough so that both could be true.

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Note that the author makes the point that mtDNA, due to its high mutation rate, may only be a short term indicator -- less than 50k years. Thus it could be misleading.

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--African and non-African populations diverged 52,000 years ago, per mDNA.

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See above.

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--He mentions a severe bottleneck in the human population, but presumes it is because a small sub-group of humans split off and prospered while all the rest died. This seems incomplete because it is more likely that the small group would die out than the large group. The scenario presented elsewhere that the climate nearly resulted in the extinction of humans has more substance to it.

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But you are saying almost the same thing. Climatic change could have been why one group prospered and the rest didn't.

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--One thought is that humans became hungry enough to hunt Neanderthal. Neanderthal were better adapted to the cold, but humans are like cockroaches when they have to be.

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This doesn't show up in any archeological finds that I know of.

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--Does anyone besides me have a problem with the fact that half-life of an isotope is far more predictable than mtDNA mutation rate?

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No.

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Maybe the Neanderthal were not welcome in this Eden except as food.

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Hungry for some flesh are ya?

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I was making a side comment about Goliath. However, The fossil record is incomplete and the last Neanderthal may have existed in separated small groups.

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The dates are not rock solid. There probably were Neanderthal roaming around for awhile after our last record of them.

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Or maybe, they became laborers to humans during the rapid expansion of human population after the recovery from the 37,000 year ago bottleneck. It seems incomplete to say the Neanderthal went extinxt 35,000 years ago, period. I wonder if some Neanderthal survived as slaves.

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Laborers doing what? Slave labor is a drawback in hunter-gatherer societies. It only becomes valuable at civilization level- or near to it- under certain conditions.

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It just does not seem correct that a species smarter than us never developed a civilization.

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Where did this come from? How do you know they were smarter than we are?

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The mainstream will eventually overcome its proclivities for inertia and include the now-proven water erosion and re-carving marks on the Sphinx. The problem with the original structure being 10,000 years old requires change of thinking.

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No webpage found at provided URL: http://24.141.54.174/deleted_guardian.htm[quote]Why doesn't it bother any of the experts that Cheops pyramid is the only one without hieroglyphics on the interior?[/qutoe]Boy you jump around don't you?Cheops was first. It was a tomb designed to protect the body of a king and all of his possessions. It didn't work. Later builders resorted to magic-- heiroglyphic spells. Not to mention a possible change of cultural ideas.

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To my way of thinking, Humans out-competed the Neanderthal, picked up the ball, and built a civilization before the flooding events of 12,000 to 10,000 years ago.

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Where is the evidence of this civilization. Civilizations leave BIG foot-prints.

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The Neanderthals were musical 50,000 years ago. Abstract thought was an every day occurrence. They made musical instruments while our ancestors made stone tools. Another signpost.

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We have evidence of the Neandarhtals making flutes. It is unsupported extrapolation that other humans did not make flutes.------------------
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by axial soliton:
microsoft/quoteYou and me both, man!

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Their world view must have been to not rock the boat.

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This is pure speculation. How can you know what their world view was? Or why they stopped expanding where they did?

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would not allow themselves to adapt to the cockroach philosophy that humans seem to use so well.

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More baseless speculation. You cannot know that they 'would not allow themselves' to do anything. Could have been that they tried and failed.

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People who develop their world view after deep abstract thought do not necessarily care what the world is doing around them.

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Fine. But you cannot apply this to Neandarthal. You cannot know the contents of their minds. That information is for the most part lost to us. We have burials. We infer some kind of religion/supernatural belief, but that is about all we can infer; and I am uncomfortable even with that.

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Neanderthals were abstract thinkers 53kya that we know of.

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I think you are referring to the musical instruments that Joe has pointed out were a joke. Even if they were not a joke, it doesn't imply abstract thought. Music -- the making of and the listening to-- is largely emotional. Watch how little kids will hum and make noise. Voila-- music, or proto-music. No abstract thought involved.

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I speculate the Neanderthal could not survive on their own because humans in the valley compete for what food remains and play dirty politics, besides.

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Reasonable enough, but humans need not necessarily have been involved in the end of the Neandarthal.

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Since canabalism is well documented in human history, why not consider it under these circumstances?

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But not as a staple food supply. Cannibalism is actually pretty rare and when culturally accepted has a great deal of theology and ritual associated with it.

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After all, the Neanderthal are not us, who cares if there is one less?

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This doesn't mean that humans would have eaten the N's (tired of typing that word). Humans are pretty weird about what they eat. Culture determines what is edible or not. Think about all the things around you that aren't food, but are edible-- cats, dogs, horses, roaches, crickets, children, pigeons....

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It takes some insight, analysis, and smart use of data to figure out which way to migrate and how to adapt.

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We aren't talking catastrphic change of environment when viewed from a human perspective. The change occurs over many generations. I don't see that it would take a genius to follow the food supply and the warm weather.

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This is bad news for the slow human thinkers.

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Remember, these slow human thinkers are virtually identical to humans 2002.

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I am thinking that when the climate takes from one area, it gives to another.

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No. Climate cannot be modeled as simplistically as that.

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I mean American football.

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ewwww.... sports! Icky!

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It does not seem reasonable to me that the Neanderthal died out with the last woman starving to death on a hill overlooking the Atlantic in Portugal. It is more likely that humans and Neanderthal coexisted until the end.

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Agreed. This is exactly what I said.

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Coexistence in human terms means that our ancestors used the Neanderthal to benefit themselves.

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No it doesn't. We haven't 'used' the California Condor, for example. Coexistence does not imply slavery of one to the other. You need more evidence for this claim.

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I have found numerous references to Neanderthal art and music once I figured out how to look for it.

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See Joe's post.

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Sphinx.

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Water erosion of the sphinx is an interesting question.Take a look at this picture of a yardang. No webpage found at provided URL: http://www.bu.edu/news/releases/2001/El-Bazphotos.htm[quote]It is hard to believe that Cheops was the only pharoah without an ego. There was no burial chamber in this pyramid, as I recall. The sarcophagus found in other pyramids was missing here. Hard to believe thieves stole a stone box. To put the picture together requires looking at all that was going on in a time period.

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This is a link that creationists will not like:
http://members.aol.com/TeacherNet/PreHistory.html
General data:
Page not found - Big Bend Community College

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Very interesting links. Thankie.------------------
http://www.hells-handmaiden.com[This message has been edited by John, 08-10-2002]