Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 64 (9164 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,824 Year: 4,081/9,624 Month: 952/974 Week: 279/286 Day: 0/40 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Evolution......?
axial soliton
Inactive Member


Message 52 of 60 (14394)
07-29-2002 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Percy
05-15-2002 11:31 PM


In some of the neighboring threads, there is a bottoms-up approach to the discussion of evolution that shows penetrating argument into the molecular mechanics behind evolutionary change. Not my field, but incredible stuff nonetheless. I hope a top-down type of post will also be welcome that responds directly to the significance of questions asked by creationists.
For a number of years, people in numerous parts of the country have noticed declining frog populations and dramatic mutations in regional populations. Pesticides and parasites have been associated with frog mutations:
http://www.frogs.org/news/article.asp?CategoryID=14&InfoR...
Now that this link has been observed, the focus of research can be narrowed.
I also remember reading articles in Science News or Science during the 1990's that viruses have a role in modifying the DNA of amphibians to cause mutations. For deformities, the numbers are high, 15% of a population. Here is a one source:
http://www.sciencenews.org/search.asp?target=frog+&navEve...
In addition, it can not be precluded that viruses, the higher UV levels these days, parasites, and new chemicals in the environment work together to make a second order mechanism to hasten deformities and mutations. The high rate of mutation and deformity, short gestation, and deep existing knowledge of amphibians make this arena a good candidate to study both individual and collective effects of environmental factors on evolution of organisms, and DNA. Existing work reports a large number and type of deformities. Some changes may be mutations that can be catagorized as the start of speciation in offspring that prosper. Or, maybe individuals surviving due to their higher white cell counts have generations of offspring. I hope they can study the mechanism step-by-step under an SEM and AFM. I know I speculate a bit, but there is already a smoking gun and a ballistics report. We just need to affirmatively fill some small gaps.
One question. Do they study the spin state at binding sites in biological molecules?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Percy, posted 05-15-2002 11:31 PM Percy has not replied

  
axial soliton
Inactive Member


Message 56 of 60 (14887)
08-06-2002 1:58 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by Big B
08-01-2002 9:26 PM


quote:
This is completely false.
In my opinion, it is probably true. Rarely will there be something that is completely one way or another.
quote:
ID and Creationism, for whatever reasons, does provide a reason to look at evolution much more closely.
How is this possible? A scientist setting up an experiment might look at hundreds of papers from the literature. He/She must absolutely show a clear stepwise connection between what is shown already, and the result expected. How in this Universe would it be possible to start from mysticism and go to step B?
quote:
These ideas that are in contrast to evolution should be considered positive by all of the science community because it forces evolutionist to answer questions and dig deeper.
This statement postulates a result based on no data. Scientists have a hard time designing experiments that use magical incantations. Instead, Ideas are built upon earlier ideas that have some data behind them. There is then this long string of facts or observations from a past point to what the present scientist is trying to accomplish in the present. This is a lot how farmers work in the 21st century. They use soil analysis, weather forecasts, crop rotation, and the latest seeds. Both scientists and farmers need to know exactly what they did and why it worked, so they can do it again. There is not much room for anything mystical.
quote:
ID and Creationist scientists have posed numerous questions that NEED to be answered even if they're for all the wrong reasons as you think.
This is stated, obviously from a single personal perspective. In my opinion, the best remedy is to attend a conference of scientists and try to get a feel for the big picture there. Scientists already ask themselves rock-hard questions. This process is called peer review. Their questions are asked from the basis of what is known, because if a scientist is proposing by his/her experiment to add to the body of literature, their peers will make absolutely clear that the new data is correct. That way, the next experiments can depend upon it. Religion and politics don't work this way. Wish they did. "NEED" is your opinion. What makes you the arbiter of what NEEDS to be answered? Perhaps people who believe in a magical past and an unknowable present just don't get it. Scientists work from known points to develop new known points. Just because they have not addressed your points yet is not a bad thing. Like the farmer, they work on what is practical.
quote:
I wonder if evolutionary scientist would have even cared to search for explanations of irreducible complexity and the likes if it weren't for opposition.
Maybe this is news, but to a scientist, you or the creationists are not the opposition. Because a scientist cannot write a paper that uses magic, any proposal that includes mystical steps, is irrelevant.
quote:
Everyone has their ideas on what the world is about and religious philosophies, even if its a lack thereof, so the diversity of these beliefs in the science community is the greatest asset one could ask for.
This statement may sound reasonable on the surface, but think about it. You are actually proposing that scientists must think and work like religious people who are required to believe in magic. What comes across to me is that you are unfamiliar with both the scientific method and its rigor. Diversity of beliefs in the scientific community is a reality, and it derives from highly studied people trying to find the best pattern for the incomplete suite of facts on the table. Unlike religion, new facts will be added by scientists working on the matter over time, so the pattern will evolve into a theory. The theory will become a component of other patterns to be argued, and of future theories.
Multiple approaches/postulates/speculation are part of the initial part of the scientific process, but even these are based upon observations and facts.
Why the need for magic?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Big B, posted 08-01-2002 9:26 PM Big B has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by derwood, posted 08-06-2002 10:32 AM axial soliton has replied

  
axial soliton
Inactive Member


Message 58 of 60 (15163)
08-10-2002 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by derwood
08-06-2002 10:32 AM


quote:
So, what, EXACTLY, is this 'echolocation apparatus' that I keep reading about that is impossible to have arisen via natural means?
Well, I do not personally know the answer. But, I agree with your premise and intention. Before a person decides that something is the result of mystery or supernatural alien, they should take the time to learn about it. There is a totally incredible amount of information available just for the seeking. I know it is more work than just believing in mysterious origins, but sometimes one can just get lost in the wonder of the learning. For example.
Here: BBC NEWS | Science/Nature | Crows prove they are no birdbrains
is a story about how a crow made her own tool when her mate stole the one she was given. Perhaps nest-building should be recognized as hut-building for birds. Good for her.
PBS LearningMedia | Teaching Resources For Students And Teachers
My daughter learned ASL in high school and wants to use it in social work with the deaf. If there are any creationists still around, let's establish a challenge to them. Learn ASL and ask the gorillas what they think about religion and the evolution versus creation debate.
I realize that animals talking to people, expressing emotion, remembering ancestors, talking to them selves, learning to make tools for specific jobs, etc., is second-order compared to echo-location, but it is an extention of the same premise that complex things happen as a result of physical laws, and they evolve because of other physical laws. To say that God did it is actually an intellectual insult. Perhaps one day soon, the creationist argument will won on legal grounds by a gorilla. Think I am joking? Site Maintenance
I would urge all to argue from the known and do so without preconceived notion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by derwood, posted 08-06-2002 10:32 AM derwood has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024