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Author Topic:   Applying Science to Past Events
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 256 of 354 (144509)
09-24-2004 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 251 by Loudmouth
09-24-2004 12:32 PM


the fact that religious revelation is different than scientific evidence.
I couldn't agree more.
Just curious, how is it that you looked for 20 years and found nothing?
What religion? Not that it matters a whole lot, because you don't need a religion to find him, but a religion could keep you from him.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by Loudmouth, posted 09-24-2004 12:32 PM Loudmouth has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by Loudmouth, posted 09-24-2004 5:10 PM riVeRraT has replied

Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 257 of 354 (144510)
09-24-2004 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by riVeRraT
09-24-2004 4:55 PM


Re: Still a bit mixed up?
quote:
And how does evolution attempt to explain how intelligent life came from non-intelligent life. Please don't repeat the theory.
Intelligence is directly proportional to brain size. Therefore, evolution explains the emergence of human intelligence as a result of an increase in brain size. One of those steps was a mutation that weakened the jaw muscles. This allows the cranium to increase as it no longer has to support larger jaw muscles.
Reference: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...
{Shortened display form of URL, to restore page width to normal - Adminnemooseus}
This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 09-24-2004 05:52 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by riVeRraT, posted 09-24-2004 4:55 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by riVeRraT, posted 09-24-2004 9:14 PM Loudmouth has not replied

Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 258 of 354 (144513)
09-24-2004 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 256 by riVeRraT
09-24-2004 5:05 PM


RiverRat,
If religion and science are different, then why do you equate them as both being based on the same faith?
quote:
Just curious, how is it that you looked for 20 years and found nothing?
What religion? Not that it matters a whole lot, because you don't need a religion to find him, but a religion could keep you from him.
Quick answer, we don't want the topic to drift.
I was part of a non-denominational christian church. Kind of a cross between Baptist and Nazarene. What I found was a group of very good people that all believed something I didn't. I went to church because I was expected to go as part of my family. Remember when you discovered Santan Claus was not real? That is about the same experience I went through in my teens. Any further discussion should probably go to another thread.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by riVeRraT, posted 09-24-2004 5:05 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 265 by riVeRraT, posted 09-24-2004 9:20 PM Loudmouth has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 259 of 354 (144514)
09-24-2004 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 250 by crashfrog
09-24-2004 11:28 AM


You don't have to curse at me, we are just conversing.
My common sense goes a long way. This whole common sense thing got way out of hand, and I learned some things by the way everyone has reacted.
Even the story about the catwalks, just proves my point. No matter how much engineering, or science you put in to it, there is something you could miss. My common sense, gained from years of practical experience is sometimes more valuble that what you learn on paper.
If I had a nickel for every idiot that came out of refrigeration school, and thought he was a mechanic based on what was taught to him, I'd retire.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by crashfrog, posted 09-24-2004 11:28 AM crashfrog has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 261 by Rei, posted 09-24-2004 5:20 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 262 by Percy, posted 09-24-2004 5:48 PM riVeRraT has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 260 of 354 (144516)
09-24-2004 5:17 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by riVeRraT
09-24-2004 4:55 PM


Re: Still a bit mixed up?
I'll deal with this question, as others have dealt with the other:
quote:
What species have we witnessed forst hand to change?
Mostly these have been bacteria, insects, small fish, and plants, as these species have relatively rapid generational turnover.
Here's a link to a list, and I have excerpted an example.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/speciation.html
"Three species of wildflowers called goatsbeards were introduced to the United States from Europe shortly after the turn of the century. Within a few decades their populations expanded and began to encounter one another in the American West. Whenever mixed populations occurred, the species interbred (hybridizing) producing sterile hybrid offspring. Suddenly, in the late forties two new species of goatsbeard appeared near Pullman, Washington. Although the new species were similar in appearance to the hybrids, they produced fertile offspring. The evolutionary process had created a separate species that could reproduce but not mate with the goatsbeard plants from which it had evolved."
Here's another list of more speciation events:
Observed Instances of Speciation
This message has been edited by schrafinator, 09-24-2004 04:19 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by riVeRraT, posted 09-24-2004 4:55 PM riVeRraT has not replied

Rei
Member (Idle past 7013 days)
Posts: 1546
From: Iowa City, IA
Joined: 09-03-2003


Message 261 of 354 (144517)
09-24-2004 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 259 by riVeRraT
09-24-2004 5:11 PM


quote:
Even the story about the catwalks, just proves my point. No matter how much engineering, or science you put in to it, there is something you could miss.
But the engineering *didn't* miss it! You missed it! The people on-site who changed it without re-doing the engineering analysis missed it. This is why we do structural analysis before building - because common sense is just way too unreliable. Otherwise, you get extreme tensile stress where you don't expect it, a part fails, and the whole building comes down.

"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by riVeRraT, posted 09-24-2004 5:11 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 266 by riVeRraT, posted 09-24-2004 9:28 PM Rei has not replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 262 of 354 (144536)
09-24-2004 5:48 PM
Reply to: Message 259 by riVeRraT
09-24-2004 5:11 PM


riVeRraT writes:
Even the story about the catwalks, just proves my point. No matter how much engineering, or science you put in to it, there is something you could miss.
Actually, you've got this wrong. The engineers designed the catwalks properly. It was the construction people who made the substitution without referring back to the architects to see if reanalysis was necessary.
But you're absolutely correct to say that engineers and scientists can miss things. That's because they're human. As are you.
If I had a nickel for every idiot that came out of refrigeration school, and thought he was a mechanic based on what was taught to him, I'd retire.
Now you're adding jerk refrigerator repairmen to the list? Are you sure it isn't just that you resent anyone who's had some sort of training?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by riVeRraT, posted 09-24-2004 5:11 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 267 by riVeRraT, posted 09-24-2004 9:44 PM Percy has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 263 of 354 (144552)
09-24-2004 9:07 PM
Reply to: Message 255 by Rei
09-24-2004 5:00 PM


Re: Still a bit mixed up?
amino acid to bacteria.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by Rei, posted 09-24-2004 5:00 PM Rei has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by Rei, posted 09-24-2004 9:50 PM riVeRraT has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 264 of 354 (144554)
09-24-2004 9:14 PM
Reply to: Message 257 by Loudmouth
09-24-2004 5:05 PM


Re: Still a bit mixed up?
Yea, but when did we start thinking for ourselves, separate of using our brain for normal body functions, and a desire to eat?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by Loudmouth, posted 09-24-2004 5:05 PM Loudmouth has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 265 of 354 (144555)
09-24-2004 9:20 PM
Reply to: Message 258 by Loudmouth
09-24-2004 5:10 PM


Because faith is more than a word to me. It is a feeling. Faith is believing in something that is not proven. I have stated many times there are different levels of faith, or how you achieve that faith might be different, but its still the basic feeling of faith.
It seems to me that we all need to have some kind of faith in one thing or another. I haven't meet someone who does not have faith in something. Justifying faith with evidence doesn't say much, when in light of new evidence an outcome can change, then everything you had faith in would have to change also. People commit suicide over things like that, religious and non-religious. Think of how many people had faith that they would never loose there fortune in the stock market, then during a crash jump off a roof. They lost all their faith in themselves, amoung other problems.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by Loudmouth, posted 09-24-2004 5:10 PM Loudmouth has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 266 of 354 (144556)
09-24-2004 9:28 PM
Reply to: Message 261 by Rei
09-24-2004 5:20 PM


I agree with you.
But that still doesn't stop engineering disasters from happening.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by Rei, posted 09-24-2004 5:20 PM Rei has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 267 of 354 (144564)
09-24-2004 9:44 PM
Reply to: Message 262 by Percy
09-24-2004 5:48 PM


Now you're adding jerk refrigerator repairmen to the list? Are you sure it isn't just that you resent anyone who's had some sort of training?
Thats my field, and I am qualified to tell whos a jerk in it or not.
What I'm saying is sometimes (maybe even most of the time) all the training in the world, cannot make you smart, or give you common sense.
On the other hand, those who do pocess good common sense, and increase it with knowledge, can get smarter.
Wouldn't an IQ test be a better test of how smart a person is? Or his/her potential. I'll take one for the group, lol.
This message has been edited by riVeRraT, 09-24-2004 08:44 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by Percy, posted 09-24-2004 5:48 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 269 by Percy, posted 09-25-2004 9:28 AM riVeRraT has replied

Rei
Member (Idle past 7013 days)
Posts: 1546
From: Iowa City, IA
Joined: 09-03-2003


Message 268 of 354 (144565)
09-24-2004 9:50 PM
Reply to: Message 263 by riVeRraT
09-24-2004 9:07 PM


Re: Still a bit mixed up?
quote:
amino acid to bacteria
Wait, you call an amino acid "life"? Interesting concept there.
Ignoring that, what do you think about the following, in terms of "non intelligent vs intelligent"
Virus vs. bacteria
Self replicating RNA or protein vs. virus
Poorly functioning, sometimes erroneous self replicator vs. well functioning self replicator
RNA or protein that tend to catalyze the creation of molecules "similar" to themselves but not necessarily the same, vs poorly functioning self replicator
Catalytic RNA or protein that doesn't necessarily create similar molecules, vs. one that does.
Noncatalytic RNA or protein vs catalytic one
Amino acid vs. noncatalytic protein or RNA

"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by riVeRraT, posted 09-24-2004 9:07 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 270 by riVeRraT, posted 09-25-2004 11:54 AM Rei has not replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 269 of 354 (144615)
09-25-2004 9:28 AM
Reply to: Message 267 by riVeRraT
09-24-2004 9:44 PM


riVeRraT writes:
Thats my field, and I am qualified to tell whos a jerk in it or not.
It must be so hard for you to soar like an eagle when you have to work with all those turkeys. I think perhaps you've got an attitude problem and a chip on your shoulder.
What I'm saying is sometimes (maybe even most of the time) all the training in the world, cannot make you smart, or give you common sense.
Translation: I find it easier to think better of myself if I can denigrate others.
Wouldn't an IQ test be a better test of how smart a person is? Or his/her potential.
If your performance on the test problems from Crash and Lam is any indicator, I wouldn't recommend this. And most jerk scientists have had 10 more years of practice at test taking than you.
There's an online supposed IQ test if you want to give it a try at Tickle's IQ Test. Maybe people here know of some better ones.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 267 by riVeRraT, posted 09-24-2004 9:44 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 271 by riVeRraT, posted 09-25-2004 11:58 AM Percy has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 270 of 354 (144631)
09-25-2004 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 268 by Rei
09-24-2004 9:50 PM


Re: Still a bit mixed up?
I cannot give a qualified answer to that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by Rei, posted 09-24-2004 9:50 PM Rei has not replied

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