Please give me so-called "proof" of Jesus or God.

Nah, I'd rather see him have his doubts and become one of us sinners.

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The Laminator
B ULLS HITFor goodness's sake, please vote Democrat this November!

Well ofcourse you would enjoy him becoming an unbeliever Lam, yet who is "without sin" ? -Now, what say you - why am I here?( My intention wasn't to attack your thread btw, Admin said this was the thread, and rejected B2P's.)This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 09-23-2004 05:47 PM

Nope, I'm not offended yet. I just want you to know that I'll die a happy man if B2P turns out to be a nonbeliever.

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The Laminator
B ULLS HITFor goodness's sake, please vote Democrat this November!

Mike,I give you the words of Sam Harris, author of The End of Faith:In other words, you want to communicate in Mikespeak, regardless of the fact that no one else can speak the language. "Proof" and "logic" and "true" mean whatever you want them to mean. It's like playing chess with a four-year-old who thinks the rules don't matter.You set up a deductive proof of God's existence that says If we exist, God exists. Since we exist, therefore God exists. I apologize if you can't or won't recognize that literally anything could be "proven" this way, but that's the fact of the matter. The reason I asked if you were still parodying yourself is because I can't imagine any other reason an adult would put such a concept into words.The reason I ignored what you evidently consider the meat of your post is that it was so irrelevant. Asking why the universe exists or why phenomena have causes is not something a philosopher would waste a lot of time considering. Certain basic facts have to be taken as given (i.e. that the universe exists) before we can even begin to formulate a fruitful discussion. You merely tweaked the major premise of your original proof to read If time exists, then God exists, with similarly predictable (and unconvincing) results.Lam's original challenge was for a believer to provide some objective evidence to back up his faith. Your question Why are we here? is not an answer to this challenge.regards,
Esteban Hambre

Actaully, the entire page was attack Earl DOgherty himself.

Of course, that line of reasoning is known as 'begging the question'. You assume that a god is needed for there to be here, so therefore conclude god.I conclude that no god would have made anybody as stupid as men are in their 'own image' so there is no god.Try to disprove that.

Bumped for.

This is unfruitful baloney input. I contend that logic, truth and proof remain what they were yesterday, without my opinion. Therefore, I still say that Time and This Universe are infact here, and I have shown why they needn't be with my reasoning.Time- Wouldn't happen, everything could happen in no time if there was no God. Likewise, why would anything come about? You are right that I have made a conditional implication. But here's another with the antecedant of If anything exists THEN (consequent) God exists.So let us now obey logic by observing the modus tollens rule;If God doesn't exist then Nothing exists.However, I have backed up this implication with my reasoning (like people do in arguments) Certainly I have obeyed logic, proof and truth, and instead you remark about four year olds and apparently wish to boost your ego as an adult. LOL. wow, what a refutation, and to think your rep is outstanding. INFACT, it is directly relevant to it. My reasoning infact pertains to the implication, in that; If there is anything therefore God, what will anything show. If we are here THEN there is God, what does "here" show?1. I have looked at time (something)
2. I have looked at fine-tuning, again, something that exists according to this universe.
3. I have shown that there is no reason for anything to exist in a fine-tuned universe, life etc.. and WHY would it bother to? This, as per usual - is a nice song and dance by Mr Hambre, so he can avoid these very relevant/important questions concerning our very existence, and concentrate on remarks at Mike's expense and handwave my argument away as "unconvincing"- You must face the unavoidable fact that we exist, therefore God does. Indeed, anything evidences God, because of that bible quote I provided, written thousands of years ago under the influence of the Holy Spirit. And why would a bible exist like that, with all the agreeing scriptures about God? Or Christ? Why is there the Gospel, why should there be in a world without God? I NEED answers, or indeed this argument will atleast continue to convince me. And what I "want" is truly irrelevant to discussion Hambre, so make like a vulcan and quit the side-banter.

mike the wiz writes:

quote:

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Now; There is the fine-tuning of this universe. WHY!?!

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Because you only think it is fine-tuned.Where's that book...(*rummage*)...(*rummage*)...Ah! Here it is!From the inside back cover of the Harper-Collins edition of The Fifth Elephant by Terry Pratchett: That is the silliness you are espousing, mike. You are claiming that the entire universe exists simply to create you, specifically. If the universe exists soley to support life, why don't you go all the way and insist that the universe exists solely to support you? Every single life that came before, it was all just part of the plan to create you. Your parents didn't meet by chance. They were part of god's plan to create you. All those instances where they had sex and didn't conceive you were not just the way nature works but deliberate interference by god because it didn't result in you. And when god finally did decide to make you happen, it wasn't random happenstance that the specific sperm fertilized that egg. No, god was there specifically making it happen because the entire universe exists solely to have you in it and when you are gone, the purpose to the universe will cease to exist and god will snuff it out.How selfish.Think about it: If the universe were incapable of supporting your kind of life, do you really think your kind of life would exist in the universe? You have the attitude backwards. The universe is not fine-tuned for life. Instead, life is fine-tuned for the universe.In our entire study of the physics, we have yet to find any possible way to change a fundamental constant. That's why they're called fundamental constants: They don't change.Life, on the other hand, has proven itself to be truly protean in its ability to adapt to various conditions. Boiling hot? No problem. Freezing cold? Life is there, too. Underwater? Teeming with life. In the air? Can't get away from the life. High pressure, low pressure, aerobic, anaerobic, no matter what the environment here on earth, we seem to find life there.Now you tell me: Which is the more likely scenario:1) A system that has shown itself to be static and incapable of change adapted itself to a malleable product.2) A malleable product that has shown itself to be amazingly adaptable to all scenarios adjusted itself to a static system.Life changes. The universe doesn't.What makes you think the universe adjusted itself to fit life?

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

MTW What do you mean time wouldn't matter if there was no god? Even more puzzling is your statement that everything would surely happen in no time.When something happens,Mike,time is impicitly assumed since happen is an intransitive verb and denotes an action in time. Well in all likelihood the first 4 questions are a result of random acts of nature while the 5th is due to a resistence against the alternative which is non existence.Death is a powerful motivator in most situations.An organism has developed an aversion to being dead over the course of evolution what is the mystery? LOL You insist?! Have you ever considered how arrogant that is? The universe is completely dispassionate about your needs and desires.That things exist without god means only that your ego shall not be soothed depsite your protests to the contrary. Sorry Mike those are questions you must resolve for yourelf since your the only one who can.

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"You cannot reason a person out of a position he did not reason himself into in the first place."

Oh? Is that right? Let's re-read what I said; So you see, it is not a selfish argument, but rather - the Universe is fine-tuned for us to live in, but also - there is time for things to happen in. Why? Why should there be? Why would there be? For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of GodAnd so - by the will of God I am. Not by any intentions of men, but by the will of God. But this all is leading down the path you want me to take, which is that you are strawmanning me as "selfish". What has this got to do with anything that God has made and said? THIS is arrogance - thinking you can know more than what God knows, call him sinful and tell HIM why the Universe is. Yet everything is of God and FOR GOD. Your study can show you what it seeks to, but it remains true that, WHY would there be anything? Why should there be?My conditional implication remains, because of this.

Why not? Implicit in your statement is the possibility that the universe could not exist. Since nothingness has not ever existed, as far as we can tell, why would we presume that?

Hey mike,While I agree with a few things you have said, such as conditions on earth being "fine-tuned" as it were to support life, the rest of your arguments make little sense.For example, Why is this statement a true statement?? Why couldn't the universe exist without God?Also, what exactly are you trying to say about time??

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If you say there no absolutes, I ask you, are you absolutely sure?

The universe cannot exist without God because it consists because of God. God made it, this is truth that cannot be refuted, because if there is something, then there is God. If there was no God, then there would be nothing, ever.Time is so that things can happen. Why? Why couldn't everything happen at the same time if there is no God?

I don't understand why these premises should be accepted as true.