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Author
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Topic: Pigeons and Dogs: Micro or Macro evolution?
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DrJones*
Member Posts: 2285 From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada Joined: 08-19-2004 Member Rating: 7.4
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As I said I suspect bears and dogs are the same kind and they are similiar on inspection so how can I answer your So are humans and chimps/bonobos the same "kind"? We look similar and share 97% of our DNA, which has to be more than what the dog and the bear share. edited to add: The Ursidae (Bears) split from the Canidae (Doggies) 16-23 mya ( http://www.dossu.org/dogs.html). The Human/Chimp Split is generally put at 5-7 mya ( NCBI). So cleary humans are more closely related to chimps than dogs are to bears. Therefore if dogs and bears are the same "kind", humans and chimps must be within the same "kind". This message has been edited by DrJones*, 09-21-2004 12:42 AM
*not an actual doctor
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DrJones*
Member Posts: 2285 From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada Joined: 08-19-2004 Member Rating: 7.4
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We don't look similiar to apes. 1. I said Chimps and Bonobos (also known as Pygmy Chimpanzees), while they are apes they are not the only apes. I said nothing about Gorillas and Orangutans. 2. We don't look similar to them? 2 legs, 2 arms, hands with 5 fingers, feet with 5 toes, no tails. If bears and dogs are the same "kind" based on their similarities why aren't humans and chimps? What are the similarities that make bears and dogs the same "kind"? Are cats members of this "kind"? Are weasels? Seals? why or why not? Loudmouth already covered the morphological similarities vs. DNA similarities in message 75. This message has been edited by DrJones*, 09-21-2004 03:21 PM
*not an actual doctor
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DrJones*
Member Posts: 2285 From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada Joined: 08-19-2004 Member Rating: 7.4
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The sameness of dogs and bears is a lond subject and I just base on looks mostly and that it fits into kinds Bears and dogs are the same "kind" because they look alike, in what ways? Please list the criteria that you used to determine that they look alike.
It is true about the seeming similarity between us and apes. well commented on since darwin.
Yet I would still say we don't look like them as they are animals in movement and form and we are graceful So dogs and bears look alike and are therfore they same "kind" but even though apes and humans look alike they're not the same "kind" because they move differently? Thats ludicrous.
However no one ever mistakes a human for a monkey How often have you mistaken a dog for a bear? or vice versa? What other animals are included in the dog/bear "kind"? How often do you confuse these animals with dogs and bears?
*not an actual doctor
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DrJones*
Member Posts: 2285 From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada Joined: 08-19-2004 Member Rating: 7.4
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I repeat. Please list the criteria that you used to determine that they (dogs and bears) look alike. What other animals fall into the dog/bear "kind"? How often do you confuse these animals with dogs or bears?
The sameness of bears and dogs is hinted at in the fossil record As is the sameness of apes and humans. Therefore humans and apes are the same "kind".
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DrJones*
Member Posts: 2285 From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada Joined: 08-19-2004 Member Rating: 7.4
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Its not relevant what other creatures fit (if so) into the bear/dog kind. Its just basic body type. It is relevant since you won't provide the criteria that you're using to determine that bears are dogs are the same "kind". Because you're refusing to provide this information I'm trying to get other examples from you of the bear/dog "kind" in order to determine what you're using for sorting criteria. For the third time. What criteria are you using to determine that bears and dogs look the same? What is this basic body type? What other organisms are in this "kind"? Humans and apes share similar morphology why are they not the same "kind"? This message has been edited by DrJones*, 09-27-2004 05:54 PM
*not an actual doctor
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DrJones*
Member Posts: 2285 From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada Joined: 08-19-2004 Member Rating: 7.4
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As I said its just observation And for the fourth time. What observations? What are the criteria that you are using to place dogs and bears in the same "kind"? Why do you keep dodging this question?
However People are different from apes in our identity What does this mean? What is our identity?
Dogs/bears probably the same kind has evidence (I think) in the fossil record As does the ape/human relationship. How do you explain the numerous specimens of early Homo? or those of Homo neaderthalensis/Homo sapiens neaderthalensis?
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DrJones*
Member Posts: 2285 From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada Joined: 08-19-2004 Member Rating: 7.4
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Our Identity is what it is What is our "Identity" if you're using it determine what human is you should be able to define it.
Anyways creationists would say there are no fossils showing our descent. And creationists would be wrong.
To hold such a position as descent from Apes etc one neede weighty evidence and instead today what there is could be stored in a fridge. We have over 500 specimens of Homo Neaderthalensis alone, do you have any proof as to how much space they take up? Or are you jsut propagating a falsehood?
*not an actual doctor
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DrJones*
Member Posts: 2285 From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada Joined: 08-19-2004 Member Rating: 7.4
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The neanderthals are just celts and germans early in Europe.
That doesn't count. Do you have any evidence to back up this assertion? What do you say about the mitochondrial DNA studies that suggest that the neanderthals are a seperate species from Homo Sapiens? ( http://dsc.discovery.com/...briefs/20030512/neanderthal.html)
is is so sparse as to defy credibility Do you have any evidence to back up this assertion?
however to a regular person to see great conclusion drawn from such limited data I couldn't give a shit about what a "regular person" thinks. Science is based on evidence not popular opinion. This message has been edited by DrJones*, 10-08-2004 03:44 PM
*not an actual doctor
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DrJones*
Member Posts: 2285 From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada Joined: 08-19-2004 Member Rating: 7.4
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Neaders and us are the same people. Neaders spoke either German celt or Basque etc Do you have any evidence to support this assertion? You've been warned about making unsupported assertions.
*not an actual doctor
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