Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
1 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 0/13 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Origin of Gods word
CK
Member (Idle past 4128 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 76 of 200 (146270)
09-30-2004 7:36 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by Trump won
09-30-2004 7:35 PM


How do you connect the dots in such a way to make such a claim?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Trump won, posted 09-30-2004 7:35 PM Trump won has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Trump won, posted 09-30-2004 7:36 PM CK has replied

  
Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1240 days)
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 77 of 200 (146271)
09-30-2004 7:36 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by CK
09-30-2004 7:33 PM


" "

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by CK, posted 09-30-2004 7:33 PM CK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by CK, posted 09-30-2004 7:42 PM Trump won has not replied

  
Primordial Egg
Inactive Member


Message 78 of 200 (146272)
09-30-2004 7:36 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Trump won
09-30-2004 7:12 PM


It isn't. heres the date i forgot to add Copyright 2005
I didn't think it was possible to have a copyright stamp set in the future - does that mean its ok to plagiarise from it this year?
PE

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Trump won, posted 09-30-2004 7:12 PM Trump won has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Trump won, posted 09-30-2004 7:37 PM Primordial Egg has not replied

  
Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1240 days)
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 79 of 200 (146273)
09-30-2004 7:36 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by CK
09-30-2004 7:36 PM


What claim?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by CK, posted 09-30-2004 7:36 PM CK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by CK, posted 09-30-2004 7:37 PM Trump won has not replied

  
Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1240 days)
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 80 of 200 (146274)
09-30-2004 7:37 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Primordial Egg
09-30-2004 7:36 PM


beats me

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Primordial Egg, posted 09-30-2004 7:36 PM Primordial Egg has not replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4128 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 81 of 200 (146275)
09-30-2004 7:37 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Trump won
09-30-2004 7:36 PM


that the exodus actually occured - that section you quoted said nothing of the sort.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Trump won, posted 09-30-2004 7:36 PM Trump won has not replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4128 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 82 of 200 (146277)
09-30-2004 7:42 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Trump won
09-30-2004 7:36 PM


What is the purpose of your posts that are just ""

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Trump won, posted 09-30-2004 7:36 PM Trump won has not replied

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2284
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 83 of 200 (146278)
09-30-2004 7:42 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Trump won
09-30-2004 7:21 PM


According to the Torah
The Book of Genesis tells
The textbook is not saying that the exodus is fact. The textbook is saying that the Torah claims it to be fact.
edited to add: If I were to write
According to Norse mythology the earth and the sky were created from the corpse of the giant Ymir.
Would I be saying:
a) that it is a fact that the earth was created from a giant
or
b) that it is a fact that according to Norse myths the earth was created from a giant
This message has been edited by DrJones*, 09-30-2004 06:47 PM

*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Trump won, posted 09-30-2004 7:21 PM Trump won has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Trump won, posted 09-30-2004 8:16 PM DrJones* has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 84 of 200 (146283)
09-30-2004 7:48 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by Trump won
09-30-2004 7:35 PM


But it's not being taught as happening, but only that they included it in their mythology.
What the textbook is saying is that the Judaic book, the Torah, includes the story of the exodus. It is saying that the authors believed it happened.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Trump won, posted 09-30-2004 7:35 PM Trump won has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Trump won, posted 09-30-2004 8:17 PM jar has replied

  
Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1240 days)
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 85 of 200 (146292)
09-30-2004 8:16 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by DrJones*
09-30-2004 7:42 PM


They used it to describe Israelites beginnings

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by DrJones*, posted 09-30-2004 7:42 PM DrJones* has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by DrJones*, posted 09-30-2004 9:09 PM Trump won has replied

  
Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1240 days)
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 86 of 200 (146293)
09-30-2004 8:17 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by jar
09-30-2004 7:48 PM


yes it is being taught as happening by including that in the civilizations origins

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by jar, posted 09-30-2004 7:48 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by jar, posted 09-30-2004 8:36 PM Trump won has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 87 of 200 (146304)
09-30-2004 8:36 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Trump won
09-30-2004 8:17 PM


Actually, no, not really.
Let'slook at it again:
Early History of the Israelites
Early in history, the Israelites, or Hebrews, came to believe that God was taking a hand in their lives. As a result, they recorded events and laws in the Torah, their most sacred text.
A Nomadic People
According to the Torah, a man named Abraham lived near Ur in Mesopatamia. About 2000 B.C., he and his family migrated, herding their sheep and goats into a region called Canaan.* Abraham is considered the founder of the Israelite Nation.
The Book of Genesis tells that a famine later forced many Israelites to migrate to Egypt. There, they were eventually enslaved. In time, Moses led the Israelites in their escape, or exodus, they entered Canaan, the land they believed God had promised them.
"According to the Torah..." and "The Book of Genesis tells..." are qualifying statements. They are saying that what follows is what is asserted by the books.
Including it in "Civilizations Origins" is not stating that the events in the narative actually happened, but that things like the Torah or Greek Mythology, or the Authurian Legend or the the Egyptian Mythos are part of what goes into defining a civilization.
No people or civilization can be seperated from their mythos. Take some time and read the works of Joseph Campbell.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Trump won, posted 09-30-2004 8:17 PM Trump won has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Trump won, posted 09-30-2004 8:42 PM jar has replied
 Message 89 by Trump won, posted 09-30-2004 8:42 PM jar has not replied

  
Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1240 days)
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 88 of 200 (146307)
09-30-2004 8:42 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by jar
09-30-2004 8:36 PM


quote:
No people or civilization can be seperated from their mythos. Take some time and read the works of Joseph Campbell.
Of course because that's the only evidence of what happened. As a historian you use written documents to discover history.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by jar, posted 09-30-2004 8:36 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by jar, posted 09-30-2004 8:58 PM Trump won has replied
 Message 98 by ramoss, posted 09-30-2004 10:27 PM Trump won has replied

  
Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1240 days)
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 89 of 200 (146308)
09-30-2004 8:42 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by jar
09-30-2004 8:36 PM


double post
This message has been edited by CHRIS PORTEUS jr, 09-30-2004 07:43 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by jar, posted 09-30-2004 8:36 PM jar has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 90 of 200 (146311)
09-30-2004 8:49 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Trump won
09-30-2004 6:03 PM


I have the impression it was an epic but not an historical text. I thought Homer wrote it not with the intentions of displaying history but creating a fantastic story. I feel this way because if you actually view the Illiad for what is said, didn't parts of the Illiad come from his imagination? Am I wrong in saying this?
you are absolutely wrong. homer had the same intention the various authors of the torah and parts of the nevi'im had. they recorded epic traditions and historical backgrounds. and actually, homer didn't write the iliad. if i recall my last greek class, homer is the name attributed to person who recorded pre-existing legends and epic (oral) poetry. the trojan wars happened long before homer ever lived. but, then again, greek stuff never interested me much; i could have it backwards.
similarly, the latest dates for biblical tend to be much later than you'd think, and each book has a different focus, or fantastic story to tell.
Is there more evidence for it being copied than it actually happening? No. It can only create a major coincidence of similiar stories. Especially judging that there wasn't much cultural diffusion between the Israelites and the Sumerians.
gilgamesh is an epic written in akkadian, in babylon, which is older than even genesis. the hebrews certainly would have had access to it and other babylonian lore during their stay there. much of the hebrew bible shows babylonian influence, often even in their knocking the babylonians. the tower of babel is the story of an ancient ruin of a ziggurat in babylon, and is a rebuttal of a local legend explaining why it's in ruins. also, the first chapter of genesis bears strong similarity to the babylonian creation myth.
it's not a question of whether or not they copied from the babylonians, they certainly did.
and last time i checked, abram was from a place called ur. ur was a city in sumeria.
Much of what it is is historically sound. The nations, the events most are recorded as of happening. Nebuchadnezzar and Babylon is one for instance.
so that's the tail end of sameul/kings and chronicles, and isaiah? every textual clue tells us the bible is not recording history, but conveying messages, often from very different view points. yes, some of the events happened. but some of them we have absolutely no evidence for, like the exodus.
The exodus is being taught as happening it history textbooks. This however cannot be good evidence. Outruling the exodus leaves the other historically correct information which there is a good quantity of.
and the history channel has documentaries on it. it doesn't mean they're right. the text can't even reach a conclusive date on it happening (year wise).
as for a good variety of historical information... well. what books would you call history? at the very most we're limited to genesis through chronicles as arranged in the christian bible, sans a book or two like leviticus.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Trump won, posted 09-30-2004 6:03 PM Trump won has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Trump won, posted 09-30-2004 9:21 PM arachnophilia has replied
 Message 105 by Trump won, posted 10-01-2004 10:48 PM arachnophilia has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024