Women's Reactions to Rape

I'm not going to make fun of your question, as it makes some sense given the amount of hysteria surrounding rape.I also agree that most of the solutions seem weak or futile compared to what rape is or is supposed to be.However your assessment misses the fact that guns won't really help that much. Against the movie rapist that looks like a rapist and jumps out to attack someone, yeah a gun might work. And a general prevalence of guns MIGHT have some deterrent effect.But real rapists are cowards. They play a con game or hit from a direction you don't see coming. In other words most maximize their advantage such that you don't have time to get to a weapon at all. You are practically beaten if not actually beaten before the fight begins.You can try to live like musashi... heheheh, I like that guy... but then you aren't living well. I mean I don't think that guy ever got laid, right? Life generally involves trusting others, and that necessarily means putting onesself at risk.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This is really sexist. Put the onus on ALL males? Lecture them?Are you under some illusion that males are generally not understanding that rape is wrong or something? It's pretty damn clear schraf and the message is getting heard. Rapists DON'T LISTEN. That's the problem. They have issues which prevent that.All you will do by upping lectures is piss off a lot of guys, especially the ones who have been victims themselves of sexual violence.I will say this plan is less realistic than expecting women to carry guns, and oddly discounts crash's underlying point that the victim is the only one who CAN take charge of the situation. The enemy is not ALL MEN, it is the single attacker when you find yourself in the situation. There is something to say about preparedness (at the very least mental preparedness).

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

I don't believe that there is a staggering risk just by being women, and any guy resting on the fact that stats are not "staggering" is making a big mistake.Rape is just like any other violent attack of some kind and people SHOULD be prepared for how to deal with it. I'm unsure why the fact that one involves sex rather than for purposes of theft or just to beat the tar out of you (which men are at a "staggering" risk for compared to women) makes it more important to be ready for defense.In that part I am totally in agreement with you. Women need to be getting tough about their defense, just as men kind of do, but honestly also should be doing more.However, Rei is making an accurate point that guns will not necessarily be the defense you are making out. It is clear that most attacks are made so as to avoid your ever getting to use a weapon, and if you do try there is a good chance it ends up being used against you.I would also add it would create a false sense of security. A gun is simply a tool. Just as musashi eventually gave up a real sword when he realized all he really needed was his mind, that is what really needs to be prepared. Staying cool and figuring a way out using anything available is infinitely more useful than simply having a weapon in a bag.I have not only been attacked sexually but also for money and come close to having been attacked just to be beaten on. I have NO INTEREST in carrying a gun. I know for a fact it never would have helped me in ANY of those situations, and potentially could have got me killed in one of the muggings.I was much better served by martial arts training with no emphasis on having a specific weapon at hand. Indeed I beat a team of muggers with simple tricks and a calm mind and I wholly credit that to martial arts training.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Why? I'll tell you that certainly wasn't my experience.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

From the short statement above I can already develop a pretty strong critique, specifically regarding the inference you are taking from it, but I will wait for a citation. Personally I'm surprised it is that low. I want you to think about this very carefully... If asked would you be willing to kill someone if you could get away with it, do you have an idea how many people would say yes?Self-reporting issues aside, questions on vague hypothetical situations which have no bearing on real life have not proven indicative of anything.If you want chilling social research, there is enough of it that indicts men and women equally. Especially when freedom from punishment is involved. That wasn't what I was saying. I was saying that the idea that men constantly counseling other men not to rape would be meaningless as those that are prone to rape will not listen. It is about the ineffectiveness of that method regardless of numbers of rapists.To answer your model of what men are like, I would say there are only a minority of men who rape. That is borne out not only by stats on rape, but even the rape fantasy study stats you reported. 35%... even if that reflected actual proneness to rape... is a clear minority.I don't know why you bring "consider it" into this discussion. I'm not even sure what you mean by that... fantasize? Realize the opportunity when it presents itself? Or are you talking about seriously contemplating whether to go out and rape someone (as opposed to going to a movie or something)?Fantasy and realization of opportunity are vastly different than serious contemplation. I think the latter, which is the only serious matter, is also in the minority. I want to point out that your revulsion and apparent revulsion that his male friends would pat him on the back stands in stark contrast to your original post on this matter. That is a form of counseling. Specifically it is a form of bonding and social reinforcement for having done the right thing.We are animals after all and that is EXACTLY what should have been expected and rewarded. If you did not give him a pat on the back you didn't reinforce his correct choice.If you are going to demonize him for noticing an opportunity, a very real temptation, then I am to assume you do not have these in your life? Whether it is regarding theft of material goods or physical pleasure or wiping out an enemy makes no difference. Temptation is temptation. People will notice opportunities. He should have been rewarded for making the right choice. Wasn't this person for all practical purposes stating that he realized it would be a form of coercion/violation? Otherwise why was he stating it was a good that he didn't do it?In any case, there are many women who treat sexual encounters as rape or violations when they are not. And there are even women that want rape-like or coercive sex and get upset when men don't. If you can tell me why that is I'll let you know why some men view something differently than women.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Well to be accurate I am suggesting that violence against EVERY GENDER is prevalent in society. I would not say epidemic, but something that everyone should be concerned with as a possibility.If I remember right violence against men outweighs that against women. And if we want to talk about specifics of rape, many women start falling out statistically based on class and location. Amd what's worse most counseling of the victims tends to be only further victimization... oh poor you you must be traumatized, how horrible it must have been. Uh yeah, so lets get to counseling which is simply on how to move on without dwelling on failures (of defense) and how to empower onesself in the future. Guns are great for distance and not at incredibly short ranges where surprise is a major factor one is having to deal with. To be honest a knife or sword would be preferable.I don't mean to totally dismiss the utility of guns, But I am giving a pretty routine analysis of their value in what many rape situations would be.I would prefer pretty much anything other than a gun, except if I knew I was being pursued and had some distance. Oh I agree, that's why I am not punking outright on your question. But I think the best answer lies in the statement above. Avail yourself of EVERY defense option. There is usually always something one can use, but ones we normally carry may get cut off. We cannot EXPECT to be able to rely on it. That's why guns can become crutches which end up defeating the whole mental state you really need. I started with Karate and quickly dropped it... just didn't suit me personally.Then I spent 2-3 years in a sort of intensive kungfu program. I had to stop because of school but practiced its shadow boxing forms for years (still do off and on) as well as some of its other combat training methods.It was a specialized system based on chinese temple boxing systems... some tibetan as well. Its basis was wing chun (the same base system Bruce Lee used to develop his art) and chin na with a bunch of animal forms distilled to just their most effective attacks and defenses. I suppose it also threw in some Mouy Thai techniques to capitalize on knees and elbows.The point however was not flash or display or sporting but real streetfighting capability. I like studying martial arts and I still think it is one of the most effective systems I have ever seen... when you are talking about training to become adept at selfdefense quickly and for the most likely type of combat you will see: close quarters.It did involve some weapon training, including exotics if you trained long enough, but the emphasis was on escrima (sticks) and meteors (those little balls people use to toughen their grip) because they most resemble anything you can pick up around you in a flash.Heheheh... one of the "weapons" I used against the group of muggers was the wallet and money they wanted to steal. Oh I wish I had that one on tape.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

I will point out that we have yet to see the study. What we saw was a sentence saying that 35% of guys (and given it is UCLA likely a select group of guys) selfreporting on whether they'd rape if they had a chance to get away with it.Again, I will wait for the study before speculating, but it's already looking worthless as an indicator of what men are like. Your excerpt, while not one of the studies I was talking about, was a clear demonstration of EXACTLY what I was referring to. Without question. Those conditions bring out the very basest instincts and actions based on instincts.I have yet to see any connection to what that means about men under normal living conditions.I mean EVERYONE UNDER BAD CONDITIONS LONG ENOUGH DO MEAN THINGS. People eat people when push comes to shove.And forget the red army, have we already forgotten the face of that girl in Abu Ghraib? Uhhhh... I think it's pretty much beyond question she became a rapist. Frankly that whole scenario almost mirrored the studies I was talking about.Anecdote: I was close to stepping off a train, when police raced in with guns to get someone that had just stepped off. This prim and proper old lady at the door... looked like the someone's sweet lil grandma... turned and SCREAMED, "THEY GOT GUNS THEY GOT GUNS WE"RE ALL GONNA DIE!!!!" Then proceeded to CLAW her way back up the steps pushing anyone and everyone (including kids) between her and those guns.Anytime I get too confident about how nice people are, that acts as a nice counterpoint.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Oh it definitely happens. I watched a documentary where a killer, originally just a rapist, murdered a woman for resisting. He described how it happened and it was horrific. She used mace and he got so scared he decided to kill her with his knife.The more frightening aspect to me was that according to him she had scored a direct hit in his face with the mace and he still was able to kill her.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Cheap, really cheap. Perhaps you didn't notice the fact that everyone around them had guns and they were already prisoners taken under threat of arms?Whether they said no or not is wayyyyyy beyond the point once the threat of immediate death is explicit. I believe I made that clear. I think the conditions all of them were under was more important to note than the widespread nature, unless conditions were not widespread. I think it is pretty clear that the conditions at Abu Ghraib are not the same all over Iraq.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Agreed. Cool at being a true swordsman. What about a swordcane or a sword umbrella? Knives can't cut a man in half but they can kill pretty quickly if you are good. Girls can use them quite well. Most self defense experts talk about this though I guess I am unsure where they get all that info. My experience in various attacks has been surprise attacks where I was left no room to use a weapon UNTIL I got some distance using all my other available options/weapons.Everyone I have ever heard on the topic dissuade women from relying on a gun until they have extremely good training with a specific gun, and then not to use it until they have the opportunity. Reaching for a gun as an automatic reflex may end up being a really bad mistake.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

I'm not sure if "clinical" and "solve" are the right words, but I agree with your assessment. A lot of this stems from sex being seen not just as precious, but also "sinful". The damage is portrayed as something more than just temporal and mental/physical, but sort of eternal moral/spiritual.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

If it's from being attacked, that's one thing. If it's from having their purity (thanks B) ruined and so forever damaged, that's another.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Personally I did not find it worse because it involved sex, and I think it's because I didn't have prudish values regarding sex. Indeed that was one of the things that saved me from more psychological damage.I would also point out that there are plenty of people with rape fantasies as well as hardcore S&M fantasies which have only to do with getting beaten and have nothing to do with sexual acitivity.One of the twisted messages I see coming from prudism is that pure S&M and brutality is tolerated and in some cases championed (just look at boxing) while anything remotely sexual is reviled (like just one little nipple).Indeed, prostitution is illegal because it involves pleasure for money which is considered dangerous, while S&M dungeons and professional dominatrixes are perfectly legal because they beat and injure people for money which is harmless because it is not sex.This is certainly part of the problem.However, I think your point is an interesting one and it's going to occupy my mind for a bit.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

The reality would surprise you. While I have friends that enjoy rape fantasies, pure S&M people (so those into pain) are not in my circle.And I met those two girls that were very desiring forced sex BEFORE I entered the swinging community. To the outside world they were quite straight and no one would guess what they really wanted (I sure didn't). No, you are right about that. I was just saying that the idea that sex does not involve pain is not exactly correct. Both girls I mentioned did try and provoke me to rape them (boy were they disappointed), but both I am certain would not seek to do that outside on the streets.People into rape and S&M can still be raped and beaten beyond their will. It is a growing movement, though it's hard to tell if it is growing in popularity or just people feel more free to talk about it. I think it is bigger than a small minority (especially if you include rape fantasies) but would doubt it's near a majority. Then again, I could be surprised!

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

I don't think the added trauma has to do with the fact that sex was involved. I think the most violent attacks happen to involve sex, and it is because they tend to be the most violent and long lasting of attacks that there is greater trauma.For example, if you are being robbed the force generally lasts as long as necessary to get the money. A rape is focused not just to "get the sex" but really to beat the hell out of someone physically, emotionally, or both. It's not just compliance but degradation. Indeed some rapes involve no sexual stimulation of the rapist by the victim.My guess is if you take a person who went through a totally nonsexual attack but brutal and degrading, there will be the same amount of trauma as suffered by someone raped with the same degree of brutality.A difference will also show up afterward based on how the individual views sex, and how those around the person treat them because sex was involved. That is to the degree that sex acts during the rape are thought of as reducing their "purity" the worse it will be and ADD to the trauma. Men get raped too. I certainly was through at least a violation and an attempted rape.Some people also rape animals.It is about power. It does not surprise me that men will generally have power issues with women that tends to include sex, more than they have issues that would involve sex with other men. But it does happen, and I think it has been pointed out that if we just look at violent attacks based on power (in general) man on man violence is greater proportionally than man on woman violence.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)