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Author Topic:   Women's Reactions to Rape
Rei
Member (Idle past 7013 days)
Posts: 1546
From: Iowa City, IA
Joined: 09-03-2003


Message 31 of 235 (146407)
10-01-2004 2:50 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by crashfrog
10-01-2004 1:33 AM


I don't get your concept at all. Seriously, to work, you'd not only have to be armed at all times, but you'd have to have your gun out, cocked, and pointed at the other person all the time. That would change societal dynamics, let me tell you. And it would create a new boom in the hospital industry at the same time...
Be realistic. What, do you think the average woman is Billy The Kid? Who, when she gets a knife to her throat, can suddenly whip out a gun, cock it, and have it to the person's head faster than they can react? Or do you think women can, while unconscious from a drug, punched out, etc, still manage to sleep-shoot? I really don't get how you're picturing this sort of thing would *help*.
Do you think that rapists *aren't* going to attack when a person's guard is down and they aren't expecting it? What are you picturing the typical rape scenario being like - some sort of movie monster that turns to attack from all the way across the room in slow motion?
I'd also would like a response to the fact that if you draw a gun on the attacker (not that you'd realistically have any sort of chance to do so), someone is very likely to get seriously injured or killed (either you, them, or both) . If they're not armed themselves (and probably a lot more skilled with their weapons), the first thing they'll do when they want to attack you (or when you try to draw on them) is go for *your* gun. If your main issue is about average physical strength differences, who do you think will end up with the gun?
Also, I'd like a response to the fact that you're far, far more likely to be shot yourself or have a family member shot by your gun than an attacker.
I mean, seriously - if you're going to propose self-destructive "solutions", why not just propose that all women dress in barbed wire and strap bombs to their chests? THAT'll stop an attacker!

"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by crashfrog, posted 10-01-2004 1:33 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by CK, posted 10-01-2004 4:38 AM Rei has replied
 Message 40 by crashfrog, posted 10-01-2004 11:06 AM Rei has replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4128 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 32 of 235 (146422)
10-01-2004 4:38 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Rei
10-01-2004 2:50 AM


quote:
I know I'd go ballistic on some hairy queer who tried to bend me over.
Ah nothing like a topic like this to bring the bigots out - Male rape is even less about sex than female rape. I guess those queers have got to do something when they are not attacking children.
I'm always gobsmacked how many of those posters here can be so intelligent in some areas but total unaware in others.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Rei, posted 10-01-2004 2:50 AM Rei has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Silent H, posted 10-01-2004 6:23 AM CK has not replied
 Message 43 by Rei, posted 10-01-2004 12:57 PM CK has replied
 Message 74 by One_Charred_Wing, posted 10-02-2004 1:53 AM CK has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5820 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 33 of 235 (146424)
10-01-2004 6:05 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by nator
10-01-2004 12:15 AM


Why put the onus on the victim to stop the attacker instead of taking action, as a man yourself, to talk to all of the men and boys you can get to about rape and how it isn't OK?
This is really sexist. Put the onus on ALL males? Lecture them?
Are you under some illusion that males are generally not understanding that rape is wrong or something? It's pretty damn clear schraf and the message is getting heard. Rapists DON'T LISTEN. That's the problem. They have issues which prevent that.
All you will do by upping lectures is piss off a lot of guys, especially the ones who have been victims themselves of sexual violence.
I will say this plan is less realistic than expecting women to carry guns, and oddly discounts crash's underlying point that the victim is the only one who CAN take charge of the situation. The enemy is not ALL MEN, it is the single attacker when you find yourself in the situation. There is something to say about preparedness (at the very least mental preparedness).

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by nator, posted 10-01-2004 12:15 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by nator, posted 10-01-2004 9:49 AM Silent H has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5820 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 34 of 235 (146425)
10-01-2004 6:19 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by crashfrog
10-01-2004 1:39 AM


Women are at risk of being raped - staggering risk, if the statistics are to be believed.
I don't believe that there is a staggering risk just by being women, and any guy resting on the fact that stats are not "staggering" is making a big mistake.
Rape is just like any other violent attack of some kind and people SHOULD be prepared for how to deal with it. I'm unsure why the fact that one involves sex rather than for purposes of theft or just to beat the tar out of you (which men are at a "staggering" risk for compared to women) makes it more important to be ready for defense.
In that part I am totally in agreement with you. Women need to be getting tough about their defense, just as men kind of do, but honestly also should be doing more.
However, Rei is making an accurate point that guns will not necessarily be the defense you are making out. It is clear that most attacks are made so as to avoid your ever getting to use a weapon, and if you do try there is a good chance it ends up being used against you.
I would also add it would create a false sense of security. A gun is simply a tool. Just as musashi eventually gave up a real sword when he realized all he really needed was his mind, that is what really needs to be prepared. Staying cool and figuring a way out using anything available is infinitely more useful than simply having a weapon in a bag.
I have not only been attacked sexually but also for money and come close to having been attacked just to be beaten on. I have NO INTEREST in carrying a gun. I know for a fact it never would have helped me in ANY of those situations, and potentially could have got me killed in one of the muggings.
I was much better served by martial arts training with no emphasis on having a specific weapon at hand. Indeed I beat a team of muggers with simple tricks and a calm mind and I wholly credit that to martial arts training.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by crashfrog, posted 10-01-2004 1:39 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by crashfrog, posted 10-01-2004 11:13 AM Silent H has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5820 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 35 of 235 (146426)
10-01-2004 6:23 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by CK
10-01-2004 4:38 AM


Male rape is even less about sex than female rape.
Why? I'll tell you that certainly wasn't my experience.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by CK, posted 10-01-2004 4:38 AM CK has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 36 of 235 (146444)
10-01-2004 9:49 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by Silent H
10-01-2004 6:05 AM


quote:
Are you under some illusion that males are generally not understanding that rape is wrong or something?
In a UCLA study, 35% of college age men said that they would violently rape if they could be assured of getting away with it.
That's a pretty big chunk of men. I undersrtand that it is only one study, but it's very chilling to me that the number would be that high.
quote:
It's pretty damn clear schraf and the message is getting heard. Rapists DON'T LISTEN. That's the problem. They have issues which prevent that.
Are you saying that there is a tiny minority of men who are "bad guy rapists" and that the vast majority of men would never, ever force themselves upon anyone, or even consider it?
I don't think that is the case.
I knew a very kind, wonderful, highly educated guy once that told me this story about when he was an undergraduate student. He was telling me about how he had this huge crush on this beautiful girl, and she finally agreed to go out with him, but she got really drunk at the bar, and he helped her home and into her apartment and on to her bed. And then he told me how proud he was of himself that he didn't take advantage of her passed-out state and "have sex with her".
I was shocked and disgusted. He wanted a pat on the back for not raping her.
He probably got that pat on the back from all of his buddies, too.
The point is that, especially WRT date rape, the same act doesn't get classified as rape or coersion by many men when it is classified as rape or coersion by many women.
Why is that, other than more men than women don't "get it".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Silent H, posted 10-01-2004 6:05 AM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Rei, posted 10-01-2004 1:13 PM nator has not replied
 Message 46 by Silent H, posted 10-01-2004 1:41 PM nator has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 37 of 235 (146455)
10-01-2004 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by One_Charred_Wing
10-01-2004 2:03 AM


They can pack heat by going through the liscensing process just like men. I don't think it'd be safe to let anyone just pick up a gun.
I agree, but we hardly make gun ownership attractive or easy for women. All the handguns I've seen are fairly heavy and difficult for a woman to conceal, aim, or fire without a fair bit of exercise.
Who cares if you can't kill it? Better have something.
Yes, exactly. I don't know if it's just men, or just a certain type of man, or what, but it seems like you have the same understanding I do - that mere possession of a firearm does something to you. It makes you aware. It gives you an option that you wouldn't otherwise have - the option to kill someone at range.
Why wouldn't women, demonstrated to be targets, avail themselves of that security? Not the security of the firearm, but the security of awareness?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by One_Charred_Wing, posted 10-01-2004 2:03 AM One_Charred_Wing has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 38 of 235 (146457)
10-01-2004 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by One_Charred_Wing
10-01-2004 2:22 AM


Maybe it's because of the difference in testosterone levels or something, but I could never understand how you couldn't get pissed and want to kill the bastard if he tried to pull that.
From what I've read, when you're completely powerless, you go into a fugue state. Women being raped often report a sensation of no longer being in their own bodies.
But that state is prompted by powerlessness. Why would a woman set themselves up for that by failing to prepare; failing to give themselves options?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by One_Charred_Wing, posted 10-01-2004 2:22 AM One_Charred_Wing has not replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 39 of 235 (146458)
10-01-2004 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by coffee_addict
09-30-2004 9:33 PM


What I'm trying to say is that good girls like bad guys.
The fact that the majority of rape happened when the rape victim knew the rapist gives credence to my view on the matter. Why can't girls hang around guys that actually don't always look at their boobs all the time? Why can't girls hang around guys that actually aren't egoistic? Why the hell can't girls hang around with guys that actually want more than sex, more sex, and nothing but sex?
Excuse me. There's a pretty wild fucking difference between a guy who wants to fuck a girl, and a guy who forces himself on a girl.

"If I had to write ten jokes about potholders, I don't think I could do it. But I could write ten jokes about Catholicism in the next twenty minutes. I guess I'm drawn to religion because I can be provocative without harming something people really care about, like their cars."
-George Meyer, Simpsons writer

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by coffee_addict, posted 09-30-2004 9:33 PM coffee_addict has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 40 of 235 (146463)
10-01-2004 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Rei
10-01-2004 2:50 AM


I don't get your concept at all. Seriously, to work, you'd not only have to be armed at all times, but you'd have to have your gun out, cocked, and pointed at the other person all the time.
Not so. Guns cock themselves when you pull the trigger.
What you'd need is the revolver in easy reach, in your purse, pointed out the front. Leave the hammer down on an empty cylinder. Somebody attacks you? Shove your hand in your purse, punch the purse against his chest, and fire. He's not going to know what you're doing because he doesn't see the gun, so he doesn't react. You can't miss with the weapon pushed right against him. The trigger pull cocks the hammer and advances the cylinder. You'll ruin your purse, but so what?
I really don't get how you're picturing this sort of thing would *help*.
This sort of situation-analysis we're doing is the basis of all self-defense schools. "If he did this, what would I do?"
But no school of self-defense answers that question with "hrm, it wouldn't work; I'd better just let him rape and kill me." Yeah, it's not going to be easy. It's going to be hard to wield the weapon in an effective way. But that's not a reason not to give yourself the options that a weapon gives you.
If they're not armed themselves (and probably a lot more skilled with their weapons), the first thing they'll do when they want to attack you (or when you try to draw on them) is go for *your* gun.
Rapists are opportunistic. They're looking for an easy mark. Brandishing a gun makes you not an easy mark. No rapist is going to try to dodge bullets to attack you at that point.
Also, I'd like a response to the fact that you're far, far more likely to be shot yourself or have a family member shot by your gun than an attacker.
Millions of American families own firearms, millions of Americans use them for personal protection, without incident. Do a simple risk analysis, here. Which do you think is more likely? Your average woman getting raped, or an experienced gun owner injured by their own weapon?
It's like you're telling me "well, my cousin was killed in a car accident, and my brother was killed in a car accident, and I have this coworker who's paralyzed from the neck down because of a car accident; but I'm not going to wear my seatbelt because it makes it too hard to eat in the car."
I mean, seriously - if you're going to propose self-destructive "solutions", why not just propose that all women dress in barbed wire and strap bombs to their chests? THAT'll stop an attacker!
You know what's not going to stop an attacker? Leaving yourself no option but to lay there and pretend its not happening.
This message has been edited by crashfrog, 10-01-2004 10:06 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Rei, posted 10-01-2004 2:50 AM Rei has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Rei, posted 10-01-2004 5:09 PM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 41 of 235 (146464)
10-01-2004 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Silent H
10-01-2004 6:19 AM


'm unsure why the fact that one involves sex rather than for purposes of theft or just to beat the tar out of you (which men are at a "staggering" risk for compared to women) makes it more important to be ready for defense.
Yes, I don't mean to single rape out; violence against women is epidemic.
Which is why it's staggering to me that the only response from women, it seems, is to improve how we counsel victims.
Women need to be getting tough about their defense, just as men kind of do, but honestly also should be doing more.
Yes, absolutely. I don't mean to offer guns as a panacea, but there is a reason that we don't use swords anymore as a method of personal protection. That reason is the avalibility of superior weapons called "guns."
With the average woman's body, you will not, in all likelyhood, be able to outgrapple an athletic man who has the advantage of surprise. But a gun gives you lethal force regardless of your physical strength. They aren't magic. You will have to train with the weapon.
But if the alternative is submission to victimhood, why is that too much to ask?
Just as musashi eventually gave up a real sword when he realized all he really needed was his mind, that is what really needs to be prepared.
Yes. But remember, when he gave up the steel sword, he carved a wooden one from an oar. He didn't give up preparedness; he merely exchanged one weapon for another.
Musashi remarked what a tragedy it would be to die with any weapon yet undrawn. When your life is on the line, why wouldn't you avail yourself of every defensive option?
Indeed I beat a team of muggers with simple tricks and a calm mind and I wholly credit that to martial arts training.
Awesome. How long have you studied martial arts? Which art?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Silent H, posted 10-01-2004 6:19 AM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by IrishRockhound, posted 10-01-2004 12:02 PM crashfrog has not replied
 Message 48 by Silent H, posted 10-01-2004 2:11 PM crashfrog has replied

  
IrishRockhound
Member (Idle past 4436 days)
Posts: 569
From: Ireland
Joined: 05-19-2003


Message 42 of 235 (146485)
10-01-2004 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by crashfrog
10-01-2004 11:13 AM


My two cents...
quote:
Yes, I don't mean to single rape out; violence against women is epidemic.
Which is why it's staggering to me that the only response from women, it seems, is to improve how we counsel victims.
I definitely agree. It stuns me sometimes how little is done in Ireland to prevent this kind of violence - people seem to have blinkers on half the time. In my secondary school (high school - sort of) the principal decided to start running self-defence classes for any students who wanted them at lunchtime, only to get hundreds of letters in the mail from angry parents who, and I quote, "didn't want their daughters to learn that kind of thing". It was like not telling them about vaccines in the hope that they'd never get measles!
quote:
I don't mean to offer guns as a panacea, but there is a reason that we don't use swords anymore as a method of personal protection. That reason is the avalibility of superior weapons called "guns."
Not an option here, and I'm thankful for it. I maintain that guns do more harm than good. I think martial arts are far more effective - closer to hand, as it were - and come without so much risk of actually killing someone. You're certainly not going to hurt yourself! I highly recommend kung fu; it's a good, fluid self-defence style, and great exercise.
The Rock Hound

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by crashfrog, posted 10-01-2004 11:13 AM crashfrog has not replied

  
Rei
Member (Idle past 7013 days)
Posts: 1546
From: Iowa City, IA
Joined: 09-03-2003


Message 43 of 235 (146488)
10-01-2004 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by CK
10-01-2004 4:38 AM


Why is this listed as a reply to *me*?

"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by CK, posted 10-01-2004 4:38 AM CK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Dan Carroll, posted 10-01-2004 12:59 PM Rei has not replied
 Message 47 by CK, posted 10-01-2004 1:43 PM Rei has not replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 44 of 235 (146489)
10-01-2004 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Rei
10-01-2004 12:57 PM


Obviously, because you're a big hairy queer who's trying to attack us all with your monstrous wang.
We're on to your little game, Rei.

"If I had to write ten jokes about potholders, I don't think I could do it. But I could write ten jokes about Catholicism in the next twenty minutes. I guess I'm drawn to religion because I can be provocative without harming something people really care about, like their cars."
-George Meyer, Simpsons writer

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Rei, posted 10-01-2004 12:57 PM Rei has not replied

  
Rei
Member (Idle past 7013 days)
Posts: 1546
From: Iowa City, IA
Joined: 09-03-2003


Message 45 of 235 (146491)
10-01-2004 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by nator
10-01-2004 9:49 AM


Those are some pretty disturbing numbers.
Another situation I find incredibly disturbing is the rate of rape in the military:
Error 404 (Not Found)!!1
30% of military women have been raped or suffered a rape attempt during their service. Unwanted sexual contact, such as fondling, was 54%. 37% of rape victims had been raped more than once; 7% were gang raped.
Asked about rape in the military, according to Karpinski, Gen. Sanchez said something to the effect of "The women asked to be here, so let them take what comes with the territory".

"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by nator, posted 10-01-2004 9:49 AM nator has not replied

  
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