Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 66 (9164 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,482 Year: 3,739/9,624 Month: 610/974 Week: 223/276 Day: 63/34 Hour: 2/4


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Is God omnipotent?
Chuck Diesel
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 41 (144891)
09-26-2004 7:27 PM


I, for one, don't see any indication of God's omnipotence through his 'son' Jesus as written in the NT. Jesus' many actions often counter the claim that he was all-powerful, all knowing, all good etc.
The god of the old testament, however merely states that he is all powerful, but logically I don't believe it's possible to be all-powerful at all, given the common interpretation of the word as "able to perform any act within logical bounds" since if god posesses ALL the power (can it be measured anyway?) then there is no power left for anything else, specifically man.
Stated logically:
P = power
G = god
M = man
G∀P→M∉P
And vise versa
M∈P→G~∀P

  
Chuck Diesel
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 41 (145172)
09-27-2004 8:34 PM


Throughout the OT, God is constantly reminding his creations (which He treats so well by the way) that He is a jealous God. Not only that, but this God deominstrates His very human (actually childish) anger quite often, and at the price of innocents as well. This God tells us what 'pleases' Him - and it sems that He just LOVES the blood of animals and people from opposing tribes and nations. Sounds sort of like a very human tyrant to me, but I may just not know what I'm talking about eh?
By the way, God showing ANY kind of emotion contradicts the idea that he is all knowing - for emotion is mostly caused by events that unfold before us and are not previously known. When we learn of a friend's death from a car accident, the news is a shock and we often resond as such. Funny thing is, so does God in the Bible. This is quite inconsistent with the idea that God is all knowing - but this thread is about God being all-powerful so I'll leave it at that.
The fact is, the God of the Bible does not indicate (at all) that He is all-powerful. Now it may be objected that we simply don't understand what "all powerful" means, so how can we critique it? And I retort that how can one claim this God is all powerful when they themselves don't know what the word means either? Perhaps words used to describe God should be changed completely. Maybe we should use "blorth" instead of "all powerful" since we don't know what all-powerful means. Therefore, God is blorth, yes? This same attitude can be elevated to any words used in an attempt to describe or define this God.
And again it will be objected that we (non believers) are placing this God "in a box", but I reply that it is the theist that places the God in a box in the first place by trying to define what it is they believe exists. Defining anything puts whatever is being defined "in a box" - and there is no other way around it! To avoid this dilema, the theist would have to assert that they have no idea what it is they believe exists and there's no way for them to communicate what they believe exists to anyone outside of their theistic belief. In fact, these kinds of theists would never be sure that each believes the same thing as the others! Either God is put in a box, or there are only agnostics.

  
Chuck Diesel
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 41 (145176)
09-27-2004 9:01 PM


Forgot to give a few 'examples' of God having human-like qualities:
Isaiah 34:2 - For the indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies
Jer 21:5 - And I myself will fight against you with an outstretched hand and with a strong arm, even in anger, and in fury, and in great wrath
Micah 5:15 - And I will execute vengeance in anger and fury upon the heathen, such as they have not heard
Nahum 1:2 - God is jealous, and the Lord revengeth; the Lord revengeth, and is furious
Zechariah 8:2 - Thus saith the Lord of hosts; I was jealous for Zion with great jealousy, and I was jealous for her with great fury
Jeremiah 20:7 - O Lord, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived
Ezekiel 14:9 - And if a prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet
2 Thessalonians 2:11 - For this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie
Exodus 31:17 - For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed
Isaiah 1:14 - ...I am weary to bear them
Jeremiah 15:6 - I am weary with repenting
Psalm 11:5 - The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth
Romans 9:13 - As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated
Genesis 18:9 - And they said unto him, Where is Sarah thy wife? And he said, Behold, in the tent (God all knowing?)
Job 1:7 & 2:2 - And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, from going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it
Hosea 8:4 - They have set up kings, but not by me: they have made princes, and I knew it not
Genesis 6:6 - And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart
Exodus 32:14 - And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people (This one's a double whammy - God all good? God perfect? - who did He repent to? Himself?)
1 Samuel 15:35 - The Lord repented that he had made Saul king over Israel
Jeremiah 18:8 - I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them
Psalm 44:23 - Awake, why sleepest thou, O Lord?
This list is getting a bit long and I don't want to bore those that are interested. Of course, this list is definitely not all inclusive - this is a small sample of the indicatioins we're given in the Bible that God is more human-like than we tend to think.

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by dpardo, posted 09-28-2004 1:03 AM Chuck Diesel has replied

  
Chuck Diesel
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 41 (145178)
09-27-2004 9:09 PM


Good ideas shadow but I'll have to disagree. You're assuming that our bodies aren't 'perfect' and therefore require food, water, sleep etc. This implies that in order for something to be 'perfect' it shouldn't need any of these things, but I contend that 'perfect' is just an ambiguous as the terms 'good' and 'evil'.
The JD theist would hold that 'perfect' is defined by God since He's inherently perfect, and anything He does is therefore perfect, but I would object by saying that if God is the standard for perfection, then He Himself has no basis for any of the decisions He makes. All of God's choices are random and cannot be founded upon any type of system (such as logic or emotion) since this would entail following some other standard and thus stripping Him of His perfection. On the other side, if God follows some outside standard for perfection, then he is not all powerful since he must follow a specific standard that is more powerful than He is.
Next objection: "Chuck, you're being irrational dude" and it's probably not going to give reasons why. I might even get a *yawn* or two - or "I've heard it all before"...

  
Chuck Diesel
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 41 (145410)
09-28-2004 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by dpardo
09-28-2004 1:03 AM


The term "evil" as used in this verse refers to punishment.
How do you know what this refers to? Because it helps your argument?
As far as God being "all good", how are you interpreting that?
God is good but is not limited to doing only nice things. He judges the behavior and thoughts of people and either chooses to bless them, chasten them, and in some circumstances, punish fatally.
I'm interpreting it to mean "all good and no bad" which follows from simple common sense. It seems to me that you've quite misinterpreted it to mean "good but not all the time since He's not limited to doing only nice things", in which case, you're conveniently changing the defenition for what all-good means. Speaking of which, if God is limited by only good actions (which follows from the defenition for "all good"), then God is essentially not all powerful.
Lastly, the term "repent", as used in the verse, means changed his mind.
[b]Again, how do you know what is meant? Because it helps your argument? Also, was God perfect before or after He changed His mind?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by dpardo, posted 09-28-2004 1:03 AM dpardo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by dpardo, posted 09-28-2004 5:34 PM Chuck Diesel has not replied

  
Chuck Diesel
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 41 (146554)
10-01-2004 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by jalajo
09-29-2004 7:23 PM


quote:
I keep hearing about God showing human qualities, this won't prove anything but actually we(humans) show God's qualities. It says in Genesis that man was created in the "image" of God. This is not his physical image, he has no physical body, this is about God making us with: intellect, emotions, will, and conscience.
This sounds like a fundamentally sound argument, that God created man in His image, but does can this claim wash with the attributes given to God? (i.e. Omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, free will, etc)
The answer, I believe, is no. God, given the conditions that He has some human qualities, cannot exist while at the same time containing attributes that contradict His so-called human attrubutes (such as emotions, free will, that you had mentioned).
To expand, humans feel emotions almost always because of some action that has taken place that was previousy not known. Receiving a phone call about a friend dying iin a car accident would excite certain feelings inside of us all - and I'm sure you can agree. Not so with a God that knew there would be an accident even before He created the entire universe. Some might contend that God feels certain emotions, but not ALL human-like emotions, but the same logic can be applied to ALL emotions, good or bad. If God feels happy, for instance, there must be some outside reasons for His happiness. This implies that before being happy, He was either not happy or not AS happy, which would imply that outside factors determine God's emotional status - which would deny Him his omniscience status. We can read throughout the Bible that God does display many emotions (most of them are anger) as reactions to his creation's actions.
God, being all-good, by defenition cannot feel ANY "bad" or "evil" emotions since He is "all" good and "no" evil. If God does feel hate, for example, then He is breaching His omnibenevolent status. The God of the Bible has displayed many times that He is NOT all-good. Genocide, infanticide, pillaging, rape, torture, human sacrifice, pestilence, disease, etc have all been condoned (sometimes caused directly) by the God in the Bible. God also mentions many times that He "hates" such and such tribe of Isreal.
The idea that God has free will contradicts His omniscient status. For a being that knew all events as they would unfold past, present and future is bound by those events and is powerless to stop them from happening. God , in essense, has no "will" as to what actions He will take in the future since all actions are already known by Him. We can read throughout the Bible that God does change His mind (repent) and seems to display some type of free-will, however this does not override the logical implications of what it means to be omniscient. Either God has free will and is NOT omnibenevolent, omniscient or omnipotent; OR God does NOT have free will and is omniscient, but not omnipotent.
These are by no means expansive explanations, as my reply included information that only the time I was given would permit. Perhaps this can be expanded upon in the future?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by jalajo, posted 09-29-2004 7:23 PM jalajo has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by General Nazort, posted 10-01-2004 7:10 PM Chuck Diesel has replied

  
Chuck Diesel
Inactive Member


Message 35 of 41 (146793)
10-02-2004 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by General Nazort
10-01-2004 7:10 PM


Perhaps what I had written did not expand on the issue as much as I would have liked, so I will go a bit more into details about the God vs. Free Will argument.
To begin, this isn't the free will/predestination argument with God taking the place of humans; rather it is a different free will argument as a different logic is applied to an all-knowing being than would be applied to mortals like you and I.
If God is all-knowing (omniscient), then He, by defenition, knows all future events. Thus, God knows what decisions He will make in the future and is completely powerless to stop those actions from taking place. If God can change what He knows He will do in the future, then the knowledge He has previous to His change was wrong, and therefore He is not all-knowing. If He cannot change His future decisions, then He has no free will. He is merely a chain of events - a train riding on rails - so to speak. He knows what decisions He will make in the future, but since he knew all along that He would make them, then He is powerless to stop from making them. Ergo He has no free will. A good example of this problem can be formed in the proceeding philosophical question:
quote:
There is a light switch on the wall. God may either turn it on, or leave it off. But since God already knows the future, God knows that he will turn it on. That is a part of His knowledge. What if God exercises freewill, and chooses not to turn it on, despite His knowledge that He will turn it on? Is this possible?
If He does leave it off, He may have free will, but cannot have knowledge of future events.
You are, at this very moment, reading this message; which means that at some point you made a choice to start reading it. You may feel you "chose" to read it. You also know that you do not have free will to go back and change that choice. It is impossible - even if you want to - you can't. If you had knowledge about a choice you were going to make in the future, then what would it mean? You would have no free will to change that choice. No option, no choices - based on the fact that you know it's going to happen - it is predestined and no amount of power can change it.
An omniscient being knows every action and decision it will make during every moment of time. In effect, God is simply an observer. An omniscient being has no free will - His entire future is set out and He has no choice but to follow His predestined path. God knows your prayers before you make them, He already knows what sacrifices people are going to make for Him - and who is devoted enough to make them. We have nothing to prove to an omniscient being, and none of our actions will "change His mind" (as was lightly discussed in another message). He already knows what our actions will be, therefore His mind is already set. We present no new knowledge so cannot change His mind. Knowing His own future, too, He can never change His own mind and thus has no free will.
God also cannot have free will if He is omnibenevolent (all good) since His decisions are always directed by the most "good" option. This also raises a question about wether or not God has a moral basis or creed of His own, or if He defines what good and bad are without a moral standard. In the latter case, "good" and "bad" are empty words that carry different meanings than how we humans commonly interpret them to mean. But that's off the subject.
It might be objected that God exists outside of time completely and is therefore not subject to "riding the rails" as if He passes through time with the rest of us, therefore my argument doesn't work. But this defense only raises another objection to God having any kind of free will.
Free will is making choices according to our own deliberation. Deliberation requires thought, and thought requires change over time. If time were frozen and nothing changed, then no-one would have free will. Free will is a concept that only exists inside the timeline. If God is - as is required - the Creator of time and space, then God must exist outside of time. When talking about events happeneing "before" the universe was created is an exercise in logical futility. It is senseless to talk of "before" the big bang, "before" the creation of time, because there was no "before" - no passage of time before these events.
In this "void" where nothing changes, God can not posess free will. His thoughts can't change and flow because time does not change for anything that extends outside of time and space. Taking the hypercube as an example, it may appear to us to change over time as we view it in a series of 3D slices, but in reality the hypercube is completely unchanging from it's own point of view. From God's own point of view there is no "thinking", no change in states of mind over time. All choices were instantly made according to what is most "perfect" (if God is said to be a perfect being), and there were never any choices or willpower involved. By His very nature, if God is perfect and created Time, then God has had no free will to either engage, change, or affect any free will on His own part.
To re-touch on God being omnibenevolent, from these these we can draw the following conclusion:
God is triply denied free will; the following three contradict the existence of a being with Free Will:
* An omniscient being cannot have free will
* A perfectly benevolent being cannot have free will
* The creator of time cannot have free will
Now what is the point of saying that God is moral if God cannot choose to do anything bad? How can it be a moral being if it has no choice? The answer is that God is not a moral being. He is, at most, an amoral being - the God of Benjamin Franklin, Einstein, Aristotle, and (amazingly) Blaise Pascal.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by General Nazort, posted 10-01-2004 7:10 PM General Nazort has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by General Nazort, posted 10-03-2004 3:04 PM Chuck Diesel has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024