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Author Topic:   Homosexuality Vs. Heterosexuality
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 46 of 56 (146169)
09-30-2004 4:34 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Rei
09-30-2004 4:24 PM


Actually Rei, those questions you answered were directed to Dan Carroll, although I would have asked you also.
It is not my intent to lecture you, I will try to be careful how I phrase things.
What are Elaine's responses to those questions?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Rei, posted 09-30-2004 4:24 PM Rei has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Rei, posted 09-30-2004 4:42 PM dpardo has not replied

  
Rei
Member (Idle past 7092 days)
Posts: 1546
From: Iowa City, IA
Joined: 09-03-2003


Message 47 of 56 (146175)
09-30-2004 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by dpardo
09-30-2004 4:34 PM


Grr... couldn't you have posted those last night? You'll have to wait till this evening before I have a chance to ask her. Althouh I'd bet money on 1000 to 1 odds that she'd answer the same.

"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by dpardo, posted 09-30-2004 4:34 PM dpardo has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5898 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 48 of 56 (146196)
09-30-2004 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Rei
09-30-2004 4:21 PM


I stated "in a way", not "yes". It was not "rape" in its full sense, but neither was it some sort of normal consensual sex.
I realize you did not say yes. My problem was your use of the phrase "in a way". It still appears to be "IN NO WAY" rape.
Having been through a violent sexual experience I find vague equivocations on this subject somewhat insulting.
I have no doubt (given your description) that she went through an uncomfortable, perhaps traumatic sexual exeprience. But there is a major chasm between a not "normal consensual" sexual experience, and rape.
It either IS, or it IS NOT, based on the victim's letting the attacker know that the action should stop and the attacker physically preventing the victim from ending it.
"In a way" would still have to involve letting an attacker know one's desire not to have sex. That is critical. Otherwise it is requiring mind reading on the part of the "attacker".
All else are forms of assault or just really really bad sexual experiences. Which is not to demean the badness of those experiences.
But calling something "in a way" rape, when it clearly is not, is kind of demeaning to those who have been through rape or much much closer to the mark (like a violent sexual violation against one's will).

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Rei, posted 09-30-2004 4:21 PM Rei has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Rei, posted 09-30-2004 7:27 PM Silent H has replied

  
Rei
Member (Idle past 7092 days)
Posts: 1546
From: Iowa City, IA
Joined: 09-03-2003


Message 49 of 56 (146252)
09-30-2004 7:27 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Silent H
09-30-2004 5:19 PM


You know Holmes, I don't know if there ever was an event in which she did tell him to stop and he didn't, or not. All I know is the general case. Again, I haven't pressed her on this issue; if she ever wanted to talk more about it, I'd be there for her, but it's not exactly something that comes up in our day to day life.
I know this is a very personal issue to you, and I don't mean to sound insensitive. I must add, though, that it is a very personal issue to me as well. Several people I've known have been raped - including a close friend who was raped by his cousin, and a former partner of mine who had been raped on two different occasions (one, she was drugged at a party; the other, when she was 14, she was attacked on the way home from a friend's house, and ended up pregnant; she starved herself until she miscarried to try and prevent her parents from finding out). Another friend of mine was driven off the road and raped (she has brain damage from the accident; she used to head a nonprofit, and now she can't even keep her house straight). Two months ago, I just found out that another one of my friends had been raped recently (I didn't press for any of the details). Needless to say, it is not an issue I take lightly in the least.
Nonetheless, a very restrictive definition of rape has been used by men for ages to justify all kinds of abuse towards women, and there is a growing use of the term to describe situations where the man knew the woman wasn't willing, but for whatever the reason, didn't protest. The case of the spouse who feels she has no alternatives and no rights to stop her husband. The case of a woman who is too drunk to consent (mind you, she *did* put herself in an incredibly dangerous situation by getting very drunk in such a situation, but that doesn't change the fact that he knew she was unwilling and slept with her anyway). Etc. My partner falls into these sort of categories.
Perhaps you feel it dilutes the term. Perhaps it does. But then you should suggest an alternative term for a situation where one party knows the other is unwilling, but the other person doesn't explicitly refuse, for one of a variety of possible reasons (some good, some not good, but all very real to the person involved).
In my partner's case, her boyfriend was far stronger than her (he was an athlete, while she has hardly ever gotten a good workout in her whole life due to her epilepsy), and was the sort of person who did not take no for an answer to anything. Beyond that, I don't know the details. She finally got the courage to leave him when he moved away after graduating college, while she was still attending.
I mean, heck, we could always go all the way back to the biblical definition wherein if the woman didn't scream loud enough to be heard and wasn't out in the countryside, she wasn't raped, and thus was to be stoned to death for having sex with a man who was not her husband...
This message has been edited by Rei, 09-30-2004 06:36 PM

"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Silent H, posted 09-30-2004 5:19 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Silent H, posted 09-30-2004 8:44 PM Rei has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5898 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 50 of 56 (146309)
09-30-2004 8:44 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Rei
09-30-2004 7:27 PM


I don't know if there ever was an event in which she did tell him to stop and he didn't, or not.
All I can go on is what you write. First you wrote that she was in a relationship with him. That certainly meant she still could have been raped. But then in answer to the question of rape you said "in a way" and noted she had not said no... she just figured it wouldn't matter.
From this I can only say it was clearly NOT IN ANY WAY rape. She was in a relationship with someone and did not tell the person no, and apparently allowed the sexual relationship to continue. NOT RAPE.
Needless to say, it is not an issue I take lightly in the least.
I like you Rei so I'm not trying to majorly slam you. In fact I am admitting I am being a bit edgier because it is personal to me.
I am trying to convey from someone who has been impacted in this way, that using "in a way" is not fair to those who have been under much worse situations. Not that her situation wasn't bad, but real violent assault and rape is worse, much worse than what you are describing.
a very restrictive definition of rape has been used by men for ages to justify all kinds of abuse towards women
Yes, and to be totally honest a very weak definition has broadened the boundary in order to allow equally unscrupulous women to gain power over men.
I was once in a room with girls that were all talking about how they had been "raped". I assumed all were real and then it turned out that ALL OF THEM had been "date raped"... well you know "sort of", they (and I am sorry but the similarity is not meant to implicate your friend) didn't think they could say no. So the guys were implicated with a crime of the gravity of rape, because they didn't say anything?
And they were repeating these stories as if they were some sort of badges of honor. I was FURIOUS. When I began relating my story they all told me I couldn't have had it happen because I was a guy. Yeah, this isn't all being used against women.
But then you should suggest an alternative term
I already did, didn't I? I mentioned both assault and violation. And let me be clear about this, I am very fair on this issue. I refuse to categorize my own experience as rape, though I know it wholly merges with it, out of deference to those who have gone through much more concrete experiences.
I consider mine basically a violation or assault which turned into a violent situation (at that point I guess it crossed into a full rape) but I managed to escape. Unfortunately some things had already happened while I was incapacitated. I will not go into more details than that.
Rape is having said no and tried to stop the sexual activity and the attacker overcoming that active resistance.
Otherwise it is violation, if it is known to be likely against another's will but in a situation where no resistance is made or capable of being made. Or it is assault, if no actual sexual activity takes place but unwanted sexually related activity takes place using force.
I mean, heck, we could always go all the way back to the biblical definition
Please do not use this line of argument with me. I am clearly not going that far.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Rei, posted 09-30-2004 7:27 PM Rei has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Phat, posted 10-01-2004 11:44 AM Silent H has not replied
 Message 52 by Rei, posted 10-01-2004 2:16 PM Silent H has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 51 of 56 (146477)
10-01-2004 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Silent H
09-30-2004 8:44 PM


Can we drift any further?
Not to be too impolite, here..but what does this rape/non rape conversation have to do with Homosexuality vs Heterosexuality?
I guess that it does not really matter since we are in the Coffee House and I just got back to the table...so I'll just listen in some more....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Silent H, posted 09-30-2004 8:44 PM Silent H has not replied

  
Rei
Member (Idle past 7092 days)
Posts: 1546
From: Iowa City, IA
Joined: 09-03-2003


Message 52 of 56 (146502)
10-01-2004 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Silent H
09-30-2004 8:44 PM


quote:
From this I can only say it was clearly NOT IN ANY WAY rape.
She described the situation in that she would just lay there, do nothing, look away, and wait for it to finish. Are you going to try and claim that he didn't know that she didn't want it (just ignoring whether or not she had explicitly said something prior, which I have not asked her)?
quote:
She was in a relationship with someone and did not tell the person no
So, if a really threatening looking persom comes up to you and says "Give me all your money", and you give it to them without saying "I don't want to give you my money", can they get off without charges of robbery?
quote:
Not that her situation wasn't bad, but real violent assault and rape is worse, much worse than what you are describing.
I'm sure it is; that's why I used a milder term. But lets not pretend that - for whatever reasons, good or bad - that she went through this repeatedly, over several months, until he graduated, because she was afraid to break up with him. And it would seem crazy to think that he was unaware that at the *bare minimum*, she blanked out whenever he went to have sex with her, and wouldn't speak to him.
quote:
Yes, and to be totally honest a very weak definition has broadened the boundary in order to allow equally unscrupulous women to gain power over men.
Example of using it to "gain power over men"? I gave several examples of abuses towards women using a light definition of rape (and the ultimate light definition - the bible's). Such as, for example, the wife who feels she has no recourse, and no right, to stop her husband from sleeping with her. Or the man who sleeps with a woman while she's unconscious. In cases like these, he *knows* that she doesn't want it, and does it anyway. Why you require it to be explicitly spoken is beyond me.
Yes, the rape would be far more horriffic if there was struggling and violence. But it is still someone forcing themself on another with the knowledge that the other doesn't want it.
quote:
I was once in a room with girls that were all talking about how they had been "raped". I assumed all were real and then it turned out that ALL OF THEM had been "date raped"... well you know "sort of", they (and I am sorry but the similarity is not meant to implicate your friend) didn't think they could say no.
Did you get details on exactly what the situation entailed? Were the men clearly aware that she didn't want it, or not?
quote:
And they were repeating these stories as if they were some sort of badges of honor.
Now that *is* a problem. My partner, for example, only confided it to me after we had been seing each other for a while, and she had trouble talking about it.
quote:
When I began relating my story they all told me I couldn't have had it happen because I was a guy.
That is a stupid stereotype, and I wish it would die out. Almost 10% of rape victims in the US are men. It's far from the majority, but it's anything but inconsequental.
quote:
I already did, didn't I? I mentioned both assault and violation
Sexual assault is the legal term for rape. I don't get how this is milder to you, just because it's the legal term. Violation is a euphemism for rape. Again, I'm not sure why this is better to you...
quote:
I refuse to categorize my own experience as rape, though I know it wholly merges with it, out of deference to those who have gone through much more concrete experiences.
Why?
Why do you have a need to make this particular noun out to be a black or white issue?
There are few black and white issues in this world. There is no absolute "good" and "evil" - that's the heresy of manicheism. There's no "here" and "there" - there are points in between. Etc.
Rape is the crime of forcing sex on an unwilling recipient. *Of course* there are varying degrees of it. Since rape is the general term, perhaps it would be more reasonable to add a preface, such as "violent rape" or whatnot.
quote:
I will not go into more details than that.
You don't need to.

"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Silent H, posted 09-30-2004 8:44 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Silent H, posted 10-01-2004 3:42 PM Rei has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5898 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 53 of 56 (146527)
10-01-2004 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Rei
10-01-2004 2:16 PM


sorry phatboy... just keep peeping
Given phatboy's admonition... and admission that he's watching us... maybe we need to get a separate room for this.
Are you going to try and claim that he didn't know that she didn't want it (just ignoring whether or not she had explicitly said something prior, which I have not asked her)?
It depends on what she said. I already pretty clearly stated if she said she did not want to have sex then that is enough, though personally I think she should have done more and if she actually stayed in the relationship AFTER that encounter then her position IS discounted. That would have to be the biggest mixed message ever.
But if she did not say she didn't want to have sex, and I mean like "No, I do not want to have sex" then straight off it just wasn't rape.
A girl laying around doing nothing and apparently not even paying attention means NOTHING. I have already said I had two gfs who preferred coerced sex. They would do the above as PART OF the act and were actually upset when I didn't "read their minds" that I was supposed to go on.
And on top of that there are girls who are just really bad in bed. I knew two more that fit the above description and they thought that was supposed to be sex, they lay there while guy pumps away. I was totally blown away.
So yeah, MEN ARE NOT MINDREADERS. A woman has to make clear what she does and does not want. Is this some extremely odd thing to expect?
you give it to them without saying "I don't want to give you my money", can they get off without charges of robbery?
Well it depends on what you mean by threatening. If you meant he just LOOKED scary, then yeah he didn't rob you, you'd be both a coward and an idiot.
If he pulled out a gun while asking, or started beating his fist into his hand as if it was a face, then you are being ASSAULTED. That is when it turns to robbery.
Acquiesence to someone's demands because one does not want to face possible consequences which have not even been made clear, or that a real threat of any kind is clear, then that is just cowardice.
I find this line of argument odd from someone against Bush's invasion of Iraq. Essentially he is using the argument Saddam looked scary and made demands on us (and allies) so we had to take him out as if the threat was real.
it would seem crazy to think that he was unaware that at the *bare minimum*, she blanked out whenever he went to have sex with her, and wouldn't speak to him.
Blanking out means nothing. No offense, but if she said nothing and was too afraid to break up (despite no actual violence or clear threats of violence) then it was her victimizing herself. She lengthened a bad situation in order to avoid the potential (real or not) for some actual violation or assault to occur.
Why is it the guy's responsibility to simply "know" something is wrong, and women have no responsibility to SIMPLY COMMUNICATE? I mean even if not at the time, how about afterward?
Example of using it to "gain power over men"?
I gave a short example where I encountered a number of women doing just that. Using their badge of "rape" they were able to blackmail the men they were with previously, use that story to control current boyfriends, as well as gain status among other women.
Are you trying to tell me that there are not women as unscrupulous as men and invent such stories? I find that really hard to believe.
I gave several examples of abuses towards women
I didn't deny them. I readily admit that happens. I do believe that sexually abusing someone while they are unconscious (other than having brutally injured them into that state during the attempt) is different than rape.
That is one reason I do not call my experience rape... just a violation... it began under a state of unconsciousness. Although it extended into the former once I fully came out of that state.
There is a HUGE difference between being violated and having a conscious experience of direct force against one's active will.
Can I ask why it is so important to get most unwanted or unpleasant sexual experiences labelled as rape, or something "like" rape?
Why is it less just to call it a violation or assault, knowing full well that still entails being used against one's will?
Why you require it to be explicitly spoken is beyond me.
Experience the difference... there is one. Both are bad, one is worse and involves quite a different form of abuse. And I might add that this is getting clear of the very specific case we are talking about.
Your gf... and I want to make sure you understand that I am not trying to say she didn't have a traumatic experience... was awake. In that situation there was no reason for her not to say something.
Did you get details on exactly what the situation entailed? Were the men clearly aware that she didn't want it, or not?
If I didn't get the details and think my description appropriate, do you think I would have mentioned them?
This is kind of unfair to me.
Now that *is* a problem. My partner, for example, only confided it to me after we had been seing each other for a while, and she had trouble talking about it.
I wasn't trying to imply your gf was anything like these other girls. I was trying to show how broadening and tightening of the definition of rape is being misused by both sides.
In my personal opinion, as I currently understand you gf's experience I would say she shouldn't be coming close to using the word rape. Of course if it was really traumatic maybe she has yet to reveal the violence involved.
But I could always play unfair with you and start asking you how YOU know what the truth is. You already said she hasn't shared everything. And if she was unscrupulous it could be that she invented that story later when she needed it to emotionally extort something from you (which is why she didn't mention it up front).
That would be unfair though, so let's trust each other when we mention purely anecdotal evidence. I trust your integrity enough to do so. If you don't trust me enough, let me know.
Almost 10% of rape victims in the US are men. It's far from the majority, but it's anything but inconsequental.
My guess is it's much higher. I never reported my experience (even as a sexual assault). I think Pink Sasquatch here at EvC said he never reported his and knew others that had not. I have yet to meet any guy that has reported it. This is definitely NOT a culture where such a thing gets accepted.
Sexual assault is the legal term for rape. I don't get how this is milder to you, just because it's the legal term. Violation is a euphemism for rape. Again, I'm not sure why this is better to you...
This all depends on the state. I think using different terms makes it more accurate and so better. If semantics were not an issue then I submit you would not have used "in a way" to describe her situation.
There is power in the term rape which people want to use, even if innocently and indirectly, to heighten the gravity of their experience. It blurs the lines of what people are actually going through, and so prevents actual understanding of the human condition.
Rape is the crime of forcing sex on an unwilling recipient. *Of course* there are varying degrees of it. Since rape is the general term, perhaps it would be more reasonable to add a preface, such as "violent rape" or whatnot.
I'm not looking for black and white, comparable to good and evil. I am looking for clear definitions of what people are experiencing.
I would say that rape is the crime of forcing sex AGAINST the will of a recipient, not merely on an unwilling or unresisting recipient. It is precisely because sexual activity is many shades of grey that I think appropriate definitions are required to gradually reach the stage of rape.
If people were wanting to say well any time a person is unwilling it is rape, that would create absurdities.
Men also have sex when they don't want sex (in much the same scenario you outlined of the wife not wanting it but feeling like she cannot say no). They can even do it clearly NOT wanting to and the girl continues. I myself have been in that position and wished it would go away. I wouldn't dream of calling that assault or violation or rape. I was allowing something unpleasant to happen because I wanted to avoid what might be more unpleasant (though we are not talking a threat of force beyond a huge nagging fight).
I think it is necessary that when we start approaching CRIME, that it begins not just with a recipient being unwilling, but some active and KNOWING usurpation of that will by the perpetrator. Thus intentionally drugging or getting someone drunk is acting to negate a person's will and rights and is a crime in and of itself. Heck maybe it belongs to kidnapping as well as assault.
As the degree to which the recipient makes their will known and the perp uses violence or active coercion to fight against it, we reach actual rape.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Rei, posted 10-01-2004 2:16 PM Rei has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Rei, posted 10-01-2004 4:36 PM Silent H has replied

  
Rei
Member (Idle past 7092 days)
Posts: 1546
From: Iowa City, IA
Joined: 09-03-2003


Message 54 of 56 (146552)
10-01-2004 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Silent H
10-01-2004 3:42 PM


Re: sorry phatboy... just keep peeping
quote:
And on top of that there are girls who are just really bad in bed. I knew two more that fit the above description and they thought that was supposed to be sex, they lay there while guy pumps away. I was totally blown away.
So yeah, MEN ARE NOT MINDREADERS. A woman has to make clear what she does and does not want. Is this some extremely odd thing to expect?
I seriously doubt that a relationship that started out perfectly normal and turned into that wouldn't be noticed. I find it hard to understand how you can believe such a thing.
quote:
Well it depends on what you mean by threatening. If you meant he just LOOKED scary, then yeah he didn't rob you, you'd be both a coward and an idiot.
I think I'm starting to see part of the problem here. You're assertive and unfraid. Not everyone is like that. I certainly am not, and my partner is worse. I at least have the advantage of physical size (I'm fairly tall). My partner is just average - 5'6". Picture a 6 1/2 muscular tall guy in comparison to a nonmuscular 5'6" woman. It's the equivalent, for your average man, of having a 7'2" weightlifter confront you. Now take the testosterone-aggrivated "fight or flight" reflex out of the victim, and I hope you can understand what it's like.
If a person like that had me cornered on a subway and said "give me your money", I'd be terrified. I seriously doubt I'd have the nerve to say "I don't want to give you my money." He might have a knife. Or a gun. I wouldn't want to find out. And I'm taller than most women.
It is the exact same sort of thing when there is a woman who is completely outmatched in terms of pysical size with an intimidating boyfriend. You fear for your safety. It's one thing to get raped, but its another thing to get raped and beaten. Call it defeatest, but in a way, it's realistic.
quote:
I find this line of argument odd from someone against Bush's invasion of Iraq. Essentially he is using the argument Saddam looked scary and made demands on us (and allies) so we had to take him out as if the threat was real.
Not really. Bush's stance was that of the robber: Go over, make demands on them, and take what you want.
Even if Saddam *had* been making demands on us (which he hadn't), your analogy would be correct if the US was *giving in* to the demands. The "fighting back" concept is precisely *not* what is going on in the described situation.
quote:
Blanking out means nothing. No offense, but if she said nothing and was too afraid to break up (despite no actual violence or clear threats of violence) then it was her victimizing herself. She lengthened a bad situation in order to avoid the potential (real or not) for some actual violation or assault to occur.
Once again, are you trying to claim that he had no knowledge, for months? I find this a rather crazy concept, of something so severely affecting his SO that she would have trouble even confiding it to me months after we started dating, and meanwhile she's off in a different world when he's having sex with her, and not speaking with him, completely different from how their relationship used to be?
And again, this is a bare minimum. I don't know if she ever put up a struggle and failed, or said anything or not; we're just going on the bare minimum here, for the sake of argument.
quote:
I do believe that sexually abusing someone while they are unconscious (other than having brutally injured them into that state during the attempt) is different than rape.
Why? Why do you insist on narrowing the definition of the term, instead of specifying other cases? This certainly was completely horrible for her.
quote:
I wasn't trying to imply your gf was anything like these other girls.
I wasn't meaning to suggest that you were implying that.
quote:
I would say she shouldn't be coming close to using the word rape.
She didn't. I did (and I said "in a way", not "yes", recall). Did I ever say that she said "rape"?
quote:
But I could always play unfair with you and start asking you how YOU know what the truth is.
And that would be a really low blow, now wouldn't it?
quote:
You already said she hasn't shared everything.
I said I didn't press her on everything. There's a difference. She was crying too hard; I didn't want to make it worse.
She's a lousy actor. She knows it, and I know it. Her skills at convincing people are quite poor (while I tend to ace interviews, she does awful; I once overheard her on a phone interview tell the interviewer that she'd rather not have a job in which she has to work with people(!)). She once had a door-to-door sales job, and didn't sell a single thing. Furthermore, she never asks for anything. IF I had any complaints about her, it'd be that she's too passive and honest.
We were in bed, and were talking about past relationships, and I could tell she was having trouble talking about that particular boyfriend, so I pressed for more information. I probably should have stopped sooner, not later as you seem to prefer.
quote:
My guess is it's much higher. I never reported my experience (even as a sexual assault). I think Pink Sasquatch here at EvC said he never reported his and knew others that had not. I have yet to meet any guy that has reported it. This is definitely NOT a culture where such a thing gets accepted.
In general statistics, 2 in three rapes aren't reported. Thinking back to the people I know... the friend never reported his cousin, my former partner never reported either of hers, the friend in the car accident did have it reported (I'm pretty sure), and I don't think that my friend who was raped recently reported it (although I don't know for sure). So that's about 4 in 5 going unreported.
There's a lot of reasons why people don't report rapes. Social shame, a feeling of powerlessness, fear of retribution by the assailant, and even fear of the potential actions of friends/family members upon finding out, are a few.
Most women don't report rapes, either. I see no reason to expect that men would have a lower rate of reporting as a whole - certainly, there is more social shame, but I'd argue less fear of retribution (there's less fear in general among men). However, of reported rapes, the last time I looked at the numbers for the US, it was 91% Male->Female; 8% Male->Male; 0.8% Female->Female; and 0.2% Female->Male.
quote:
There is power in the term rape which people want to use, even if innocently and indirectly, to heighten the gravity of their experience
Seing as she didn't use the term - and heck, I hardly even did - I'd say that this one belongs in your imagination.
quote:
I'm not looking for black and white, comparable to good and evil. I am looking for clear definitions of what people are experiencing.
And I'm looking at the dictionary and legal definitions.
quote:
I would say that rape is the crime of forcing sex AGAINST the will of a recipient, not merely on an unwilling or unresisting recipient.
AGAINST the will = unwilling. That's what unwilling means; it's the definition. And I'm not arguing for "unresisting" - I'm arguing for unwilling, whether actively resisting or not, so long as the perpetrator knows that the victim is unwilling.
quote:
It is precisely because sexual activity is many shades of grey that I think appropriate definitions are required to gradually reach the stage of rape.
But rape is not a narrowly defined term!
That's my problem with your attempt to make it one.
I also find it rather interesting that you refuse to use it in your own case. Why? You don't need to go into details about your case, but is there a reason why you particularly don't want to use that term? Do you find a sense of shame in using that term about yourself? Because it seems you've encountered social stigma about your case (such as your example of the women that you talked to), so it sounds like that's part of the reason. Perhaps I'm just reading too much into this - and if I am, I sincerely apologize.

"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Silent H, posted 10-01-2004 3:42 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Silent H, posted 10-01-2004 5:05 PM Rei has not replied

  
AdminAsgara
Administrator (Idle past 2381 days)
Posts: 2073
From: The Universe
Joined: 10-11-2003


Message 55 of 56 (146556)
10-01-2004 4:46 PM


Is it possible we could move the rape discussion to the rape thread and leave this one on topic?

AdminAsgara
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Silent H
Member (Idle past 5898 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 56 of 56 (146566)
10-01-2004 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Rei
10-01-2004 4:36 PM


Re: sorry phatboy... just keep peeping
started new thread for this topic. copied your post into mine which I will then reply to in a bit...

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Rei, posted 10-01-2004 4:36 PM Rei has not replied

  
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