Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 63 (9162 total)
5 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 916,358 Year: 3,615/9,624 Month: 486/974 Week: 99/276 Day: 27/23 Hour: 1/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Evolution......?
nator
Member (Idle past 2189 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 9 of 60 (8312)
04-08-2002 9:34 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by quicksink
04-08-2002 5:30 AM


quote:
It's my opinion that we have not yet identified the nature of the changes that are responsile for evolution. To believe that an entire human could be formed from random mutations is, in my opinion, ridiculous.
I agree. However, the ToE DOESN'T claim that random mutations alone could ever do such a thing. Natural selection is the exact opposite of randomness, and this is one of the mechanisms which drive which mutations are selected for. I thought you already understood this?
quote:
Look at yourself for a moment. You have extremely complex eyes,
Not as complex as other creatures'.
quote:
a fully developed though imperfect skeleton,
What does "fully developed" mean?
quote:
veins that pump blood from a heart, lungs that extract oxygen from the air and transfer this oxygen into your blood, which then carries the oxygen through your body.
The complexity of the human body alone is to great to contemplate. But to turn all these various features into random mutations is simply ludicrous.
Selected for by the environment over millions of years.
A little less personal incredulity and a little more research might be helpful to you.
quote:
How is it possible to "evolve" a heart?
The same way it is possible to evolve anything else. Read "The Blind Watchmaker" and the eye's evolution is very well-explained.
quote:
How could a cow suddenly be born with an extra stomach (if a cow were born with an extra stomach, it would die, as it would have no need for such an organ. And all this is assuming that the stomach is functional. A disfunctional second stomach would certainly kill the animal.)
Strawman argument. The ToE NEVER claims that a cow would ever be suddenly born with an extra stomach.
Every structure in every animal which survives is fully-formed and functional.
I think that you would do well to do a LOT more reading and study of this subject before rejecting it at the age of 12. Questioning and doubting is fine, but this personal incredulity begs for more information.
quote:
The issue of evolution is so vital to all aspects of science that it is scary. It explains are origin and the means by which we came into being.
No, it doesn't explain the origin of life.
quote:
To say "mutations created the diversity around us, but don't ask me how" is a sad and insufficient answer to such an enormous question.
That is not what the ToE says, as explained above.
quote:
We most certainly have the means to determine whether mutations could be responsible for the diversity we have today. The truth is, it is a stretch of faith to believe that mutations could create millions of species, all adapted for the world around us.
Read this:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-misconceptions.html
"The theory of evolution says that life originated, and evolution proceeds, by random chance."
There is probably no other statement which is a better indication that the arguer doesn't understand evolution. Chance certainly plays a large part in evolution, but this argument completely ignores the fundamental role of natural selection, and selection is the very opposite of chance. Chance, in the form of mutations, provides genetic variation, which is the raw material that natural selection has to work with. From there, natural selection sorts out certain variations. Those variations which give greater reproductive success to their possessors (and chance ensures that such beneficial mutations will be
inevitable) are retained, and less successful variations are weeded out. When the environment changes, or when organisms move to a different environment, different variations are selected, leading eventually to different species. Harmful mutations usually die out quickly, so they don't interfere with the process of beneficial mutations accumulating.
Nor is abiogenesis (the origin of the first life) due purely to chance. Atoms and molecules arrange themselves not purely randomly, but according to their chemical properties. In the case of carbon atoms especially, this means complex molecules are sure to form spontaneously, and these complex molecules can influence each other to create even more complex molecules. Once a molecule forms that is approximately self-replicating, natural selection will guide the formation of ever more efficient replicators. The first self-replicating object didn't need to be as complex as a modern cell or even a strand of DNA. Some self-replicating molecules are not really all that complex (as organic molecules go).
Some people still argue that it is wildly improbable for a given self-replicating molecule to form at a given point (although they usually don't state the "givens," but leave them implicit in their calculations). This is true, but there were oceans of molecules working on the problem, and no one knows how many possible self-replicating molecules could have served as the first one. A calculation of the odds of abiogenesis is worthless unless it recognizes the immense range of starting materials that the first replicator might have formed from, the probably innumerable different forms that the first replicator might have taken, and the fact that much of the construction of the replicating molecule would have been non-random to start with.
(One should also note that the theory of evolution doesn't depend on how the first life began. The truth or falsity of any theory of abiogenesis wouldn't affect evolution in the least.)
Also read:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/behe/review.html
Do a search on "mutation" in this next link":
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-meritt/science.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section5.html#pred22
[QUOTE]I'm not denying evolution- I'm denying mutations.[/B][/QUOTE]
Well, you state a lot of wrong information. Perhaps more study?
------------------
"We will still have perfect freedom to hold contrary views of our own, but to simply
close our minds to the knowledge painstakingly accumulated by hundreds of thousands
of scientists over long centuries is to deliberately decide to be ignorant and narrow-
minded."
-Steve Allen, from "Dumbth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by quicksink, posted 04-08-2002 5:30 AM quicksink has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Brad McFall, posted 04-10-2002 11:50 AM nator has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2189 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 10 of 60 (8313)
04-08-2002 9:38 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by quicksink
04-08-2002 6:02 AM


quote:
Originally posted by quicksink:
How many positive mutations can be found in one individual organism?
How many positive mutations could be indentified in 10 generations?

Define "positive mutation", please.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by quicksink, posted 04-08-2002 6:02 AM quicksink has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2189 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 55 of 60 (14695)
08-01-2002 11:17 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Big B
08-01-2002 9:26 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Big B:
quote:
Originally posted by Peter:
I've read this initial post again, and think that the most interesting
point is the above.
Maybe we WILL have an Einstein of 'Life Diversity' theory at some
stage, who turns science on its head with new visions.
The main thing here is to distinguish between genuine science, aimed
at explanation, and political meanderings aimed at pushing
some group or other's agenda.
YEC is, in my opinion, not motivated by a search for explanation,
and niether is ID.

This is completely false. Are you saying that a scientific theory, however convincing it may be, should have no differing views?

Well, no, of course not, but Creationism, ID included, are religious groups. Why should scientists listen to criticism of their work from religious people?
quote:
ID and Creationism, for whatever reasons, does provide a reason to look at evolution much more closely.
No, not really. Science, meaning the method of inquiry, hasn't changed a bit on account of either ID or Creationism.
quote:
These ideas that are in contrast to evolution should be considered positive by all of the science community because it forces evolutionist to answer questions and dig deeper.
No, they don't have that effect, because most of these "ideas" are poorly-thought out and do not spring from competant scholarship. Like I said, they are religious views and/or philosophies, not science.
quote:
ID and Creationist scientists have posed numerous questions that NEED to be answered even if they're for all the wrong reasons as you think.
Such as...?
quote:
Should we all just go along with evolution and say, "whatever."
Of course not.
quote:
Not thinking outside the box, especially with something that is considered theory, is a very dangerous path to go down.
I agree, which is why it was so great when Gould and Eldridge "thought outside the box" and consequently developed Punk Eek.
Also, I hope you are not confusing the common usage of the word "theory" (a guess or supposition) with a "scientific theory".
The Germ Theory of Disease, Atomic Theory, and the Theory of a Heliocentric Solar System, and Gravitational Theory are also scientific theories, just like the Theory of Evolution.
quote:
I wonder if evolutionary scientist would have even cared to search for explanations of irreducible complexity and the likes if it weren't for opposition.
I believe that Doolittle's work on the evolutionary pathway for the evolution of bloodclotting was well-underway when Behe's book came out. Actually, Behe apparently didn't research several of the examples of IC that he used in the book, because if he had, I doubt that he would have included them. Makes him look a bit silly now.
quote:
Make no mistakes about it, no scientist is a completely unbiased observer.
Whaich is why it is vitally important that the scientific method is adhered to.
Unfortunately, Creationists rarely follow the scientific method.
quote:
Everyone has their ideas on what the world is about and religious philosophies, even if its a lack thereof, so the diversity of these beliefs in the science community is the greatest asset one could ask for.
Well, actually, what one believes in a metaphysical sense is irrelevant to scientific work. What one likes to believe is entirely different from what one can emperically show,
[QUOTE]In the lack of true unbiasness the only other solution is having multiple biased views, not relying on a single biased view.[/b][/QUOTE]
The scientific method is designed to account for and weed out experimenter bias.
I think you would do well to learn a bit about what science is, and what the ToE really is all about.
Have a look at:
http:/TalkOrigins Archive: Exploring the Creation/Evolution Controversy
science - The Skeptic's Dictionary - Skepdic.com
http://www.geocities.com/...ion/evolution-for-beginners.html
I think you have the mistaken idea that Creationists and ID proponents actually do science. They do not.
[Removed extraneous quote, added bold to quotes where missing. --Admin]
[This message has been edited by Admin, 08-02-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Big B, posted 08-01-2002 9:26 PM Big B has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024