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Author Topic:   Which religion's creation story should be taught?
johnfolton 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5591 days)
Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005


Message 46 of 331 (147815)
10-06-2004 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Mammuthus
10-06-2004 7:49 AM


Re: I'd teach Genesis from the authorized KJV
You miss the point that the constitution bill of rights give you the right to believe whatever you want to believe, but the state was never suppose to give you the right to force your belief upon the churches as a state supported belief on the origin of life.
The infidel according to Thomas Jefferson gave you the same separation from government protections as the different religions including the Hindu, buddist, etc...
What happened is the athiest religion has become the state sponsored religion. This clearly violates your rights under the Bill of Rights. Your dating methods are all based on assumptions. Not that I disagree that the earth itself was created before the Creation week, because the bible itself agrees with you in this respect. However your theory rest upon the unscientific premise that the fossils are the same age as the rocks. TOE is based on assumptions(cry foul when argon rising, leaching, and other side related topics is brought up), Creationists should be allowed to preach that they disagree with the dating methodologies, and why. Because its the truth, that your atheistic religion was never suppose to be the state religion. Your sunday school, catachesim of athiesm (secular humanisms)should be outside of the public school forum, because it violates the separation freedoms in the constitution according to Thomas Jefferson.
Its time to replace TOE because your violating the Constitution to shove your myths based off assumptions down the church attending public schools. TOE should be taken out of the schools, just teach ID the micro-evolution, biology, and leave out the age of the fossils because its based on assumptions, that the fossils are the age of the earth. The creationists all realize your making this leap of faith, that the fossil is millions of years old, without science thats not based on assumptions. Then the children are being told its a fact, and the bible errored, when all you base this all on is assumptive reasoning. In truth your simply preaching your belief upon the children of the United States, that are being raised Christian, Muslim, Buddist, and violating the bill of rights, to force the infidel beliefs over and above these different religions. The infidel, in this case athiests teaching their religion or a godless origin, making this leap of faith that the fossils are old. The state is violating the other religions bill of rights by empowering your religion over the other religions being held to the separation protections from the government. That your religion's catachism side teaching of TOE was to be bound too, instead you have been given greater freedoms than our founding fathers decreed by the constitution, which means TOE should be taken out of the public school forum, its simply an abomination, to force godless theology upon the religion of Jesus Christ, the Muslim, the Hindu, the buddists, etc....
P.S. For all I know the gay religion will press their agenda of hate crimes through the senate in small print during evening sessions, to give them have power to attack the churches doctrines, in favor of your beliefs. The constitution never mean't for the infidel to have greater powers than the Religion of Jesus Christ. If your going to preach your religious beliefs of evolution then the Religion of Jesus Christ, the Hindu, the Muslim all should beable to preach their version of how they believe life origin came to be, science is simply not be scientific about it, because you were not there, all dating methods are based on various assumptions. There fore TOE should not be taught in the public schools, it should be replaced by ID which is not a religion as is TOE, etc...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Mammuthus, posted 10-06-2004 7:49 AM Mammuthus has not replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 47 of 331 (147822)
10-06-2004 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by johnfolton
10-06-2004 1:43 PM


Re: I'd teach Genesis from the authorized KJV
whatever
Once again you are simply making incorrect statements.
Its time to replace TOE because your violating the Constitution to shove your myths based off assumptions down the church attending public schools.
First, EVERY major Christian Faith supports teaching Evolution and NOT teaching creationism. That has been shown to you time after time. The Episcopal Church supports teaching Evolution, the Presbyterian Chuch supports teaching Evolution, the Roman Catholic Church supports teaching Evolution, the Lutheran Church supports teaching Evolution, the Methodist Church supports teaching Evolution.
The TOE is not atheistic and it's time you stopped asserting that it is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by johnfolton, posted 10-06-2004 1:43 PM johnfolton has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by johnfolton, posted 10-06-2004 2:17 PM jar has replied

  
Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 48 of 331 (147825)
10-06-2004 2:16 PM


Focus on the topic theme please
Repeating message 1:
quote:
If we are to teach creation in public schools, which creation story should we teach? Do we teach Genesis? If so which version of Genesis? Do we teach the story of the Norse gods carving the world from the bones of giants? Or the Hindu belief that the world is God's dream? Heck, even Christians don't agree on a literal six-day creation less than 10'000 years ago or Genesis as metaphor for divinely inspired evolution...
I say evolution belongs in the science classroom and creation belongs in comparative religion...
Adminnemooseus

  
johnfolton 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5591 days)
Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005


Message 49 of 331 (147826)
10-06-2004 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by jar
10-06-2004 2:03 PM


Re: I'd teach Genesis from the authorized KJV
jar, Toe doesn't support origin came as stated in Gods Word. Its states that origin came about by macro-evolution, common ancestor, that the fossils are old, when the religion of Jesus Christ(which does support micro-evolution), and other religions believe likely too, believe in a common creator, and not the common ancestor. Teach ID because its not in conflict with the common creator, teaches the sciences, without sponsoring the athiestic religion of TOE.
TOE should be banned based on the separation freedom violations of the government supporting the atheists religion and their dogma of the origin of life, in respect to the Bill of Right. Thomas Jefferson never mean't for the infidel to have greater rights to preach their dogma. To make matters worse the state is sponsoring their religion and not sponsoring the other religious beliefs, which is violating the Bill of Right.
This message has been edited by whatever, 10-06-2004 01:19 PM

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Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Adminnemooseus, posted 10-06-2004 2:42 PM johnfolton has replied
 Message 51 by jar, posted 10-06-2004 3:00 PM johnfolton has replied

  
Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 50 of 331 (147831)
10-06-2004 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by johnfolton
10-06-2004 2:17 PM


Evolutionary Theory is Religion?
This has been beat to death in the past, and the most recently active topic on the theme is now closed.
Perhaps you (Whatever) should propose a new "Evolution is Religion" topic. I think, however, it will have to go in the new "Remedial" forum.
Whatever, you seem to have absolutely no grasp of anything science.
Adminnemooseus

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This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 51 of 331 (147834)
10-06-2004 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by johnfolton
10-06-2004 2:17 PM


Re: I'd teach Genesis from the authorized KJV
Well,whatever, let's explore that.
You say, "jar, Toe doesn't support origin came as stated in Gods Word.", yet every major Christian Church seems to disagree with you. They all support teaching the TOE and oppose teaching creationism. It seems that every najor Christian faith thinks you're wrong.
Yet again you say "the athiestic religion of TOE". Since every major Christian religion accepts the TOE, how can it be considered atheistic?
So how about adding, as has been suggested, a Comparitive Religion Course? IMHO, it's something that would lead to far more informed students. There, all of the myths, Genesis, Buddhist, Hindu could be discussed on equal footing. It could be regionalized. In the US the 200 or so American Indian creation stories could be covered. In Australia, Genesis could be taught right alongside the Aboriginal creation tales, in Europe, Norse and Druid creation stories could be added. In Asia, the Shinto and Chinese myths could be added. In the Middle East Genesis could gather with the Sumerian tales, the Greek God's and the Babylonian myths that came before.
At the end of the semester, the students could vote for their favorite creation myth and paint the story on one of the outside walls of the school. Each class could add a mural until all the walls were filled with murals. It would be glorious, Dream Time next to Genesis, next to Egg, next to Turtle, next to Raven, next to Atum rising from Nu and mating with his shadow.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by johnfolton, posted 10-06-2004 2:17 PM johnfolton has replied

Replies to this message:
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johnfolton 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5591 days)
Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005


Message 52 of 331 (147837)
10-06-2004 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Adminnemooseus
10-06-2004 2:42 PM


Re: Evolutionary Theory is Religion?
I feel TOE is just a small part of the religion of secular humanism, to increase their following however they are using the state to place their godless religion over and above the other religions of the world, how is this fair to buddhists that too are a godless based religion.
P.S. Is not buddaisms more of a philosophy of self, than a belief in a god, yet this sect according to Thomas Jefferson was to be extended separation protection from the state, truely the athiest too are a godless based religion / sect, its called secular humanisms. If the buddists is not to be empowered by the government, then neither should the atheistic religion and their dogma side shoots dogma's be given government sanction powers to preach for more converts using state moneys, using the federal public school system to the gaining of converts, into their godless based belief in respect to origin, etc...

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 53 of 331 (147838)
10-06-2004 3:19 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by johnfolton
10-06-2004 3:17 PM


I feel TOE is just a small part of the religion of secular humanism, to increase their following
Why would we want to? Why would we want to evangelize for secular humanism? Not everybody's like you.

"What gets me is all the mean things people say about Secular Humanism without even taking the time to read some of our basic scriptures, such as the Bill of Rights or Omni magazine." - Barbara Ehrenreich

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johnfolton 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5591 days)
Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005


Message 54 of 331 (147840)
10-06-2004 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by jar
10-06-2004 3:00 PM


Re: I'd teach Genesis from the authorized KJV
Jar, All of what your saying is why we should keep secular humanisms, that includes TOE out of the public school system, and why Thomas Jefferson didn't want the government to place one above the other, etc...
P.S. I'm all for taking ToE out of the public school system and replacing it with ID that is not a religion, but based on what all believe, including the evolutionist, that be micro-evolution, biology, etc...Just toss Geology 101, Paleontology 101 out, and leave the respectful sciences in, biology, micro-biology, soil sciences, etc...

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Replies to this message:
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AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 55 of 331 (147843)
10-06-2004 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by johnfolton
10-06-2004 3:22 PM


Secular?
whatever, several times it has been pointed out to you that the majority of the religions of the world do NOT have any problem with the ToE.
You have failed to acknowledge or discuss this fact. You don't have to agree with it. You simple have to give a rational argument why you don't.
If you continue to totally ignore what is posted in discussions with you then you will be an early candidate for the Remedial forum. In the meantime you may find yourself taking another break with no posting privileges at all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by johnfolton, posted 10-06-2004 3:22 PM johnfolton has replied

Replies to this message:
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MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 6353 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 56 of 331 (147880)
10-06-2004 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Mammuthus
10-06-2004 7:49 AM


Re: I'd teach Genesis from the authorized KJV
You would also have to teach from every other creation myth from Hindu to Yaqui Indian.
Aborigine to Zulu ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Mammuthus, posted 10-06-2004 7:49 AM Mammuthus has not replied

  
johnfolton 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5591 days)
Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005


Message 57 of 331 (147901)
10-06-2004 7:05 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by AdminNosy
10-06-2004 3:29 PM


Re: Secular?
NosyNed, ****Show me proof**** to support that the religions of the world support macro-evolution,*** common ancestor**, that they have no problem with this part of TOE, You will find that most of the religions of the world all agree with micro-evolution (breeding)as I have stated over and over, the bible supports micro-evolution, and only a common creator, your suggesting the religions of the world support a common ancestor, which is an outright lie.
P.S. You say its been shown to me, I say it has not, been shown to me that the majority of the churches believe its a common ancestor, and not a common creator, etc...The Catholic church believes in Evolution as do most Christian Churches, but not in your definition of evolution, that all life arose from one common ancestor, this it the problem with teaching this lie as if it is true.
P.S. ID is the more honest in respect to what the majority of the churches teach in respect to micro-evolution, because they don't discount a common creator, the very meaning of Intelligent Design infers a common creator and not a common ancestor, which is the reason you fear this theory, because it threatens your atheistic religion preaching a common ancestor, forcing this belief upon the churches, etc...
This message has been edited by whatever, 10-06-2004 06:07 PM

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Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Coragyps, posted 10-06-2004 8:20 PM johnfolton has replied
 Message 59 by AdminNosy, posted 10-06-2004 8:37 PM johnfolton has not replied
 Message 61 by jar, posted 10-06-2004 8:50 PM johnfolton has replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 58 of 331 (147912)
10-06-2004 8:20 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by johnfolton
10-06-2004 7:05 PM


Re: Secular?
Okay, Whatever. A start:
Presbyterian: "We conclude that the true relation between the evolutionary theory and the Bible is that of non-contradiction and that the position stated by the General Assemblies of 1886, 1888, 1889 and 1924 was in error and no longer represents the mind of our Church."
Presbyterian Mission Agency Theology and Worship | Presbyterian Mission Agency

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by johnfolton, posted 10-06-2004 7:05 PM johnfolton has replied

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AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 59 of 331 (147916)
10-06-2004 8:37 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by johnfolton
10-06-2004 7:05 PM


It is AdminNosy NOT NosyNed
I try hard to offer a distinction when operating in different modes. If I fail to do that please note it in suggestions and questions.
Your post consists of nothing but assertions. That is they are your statements about what churchs accept and don't. You claim that a lie has been made about what churchs believe.
You have offered no evidence at all. Your assertions of what others believe isn't worth anything at all.
What you need to do under these circumstances is what others have to do. Show quotes of what those churches themselves believe.
I will leave it to others to point out where you are wrong about ID and to point out that the IDists are closer in view to the evolutionists than they are to you. Especially those evolutionists who are God believing Christians.
This message has been edited by AdminNosy, 10-06-2004 07:55 PM

This message is a reply to:
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AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 60 of 331 (147917)
10-06-2004 8:39 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Coragyps
10-06-2004 8:20 PM


Re: Secular?
This post of Coryagyps, whatever, is an example of what you have to do. You can start with the fundamentalist churchs that will agree with you if you like. When the size of the membership of the churches is added up then we will see how much of a "lie" (as you claim) has been told.
Another thing: be very,very careful about using the word "lie" when you are discussing things you don't know much about. I think it is possible to use it in the forum but only under very select circumstances and you'd better be right a lot more often than wrong.
If you wish to keep making assertions without support then you will lose your full posting privileges.
This message has been edited by AdminNosy, 10-06-2004 07:41 PM

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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