The Bible says Eli was a priest and served in that dimension for 40 years.
The Bible also says that Eli was a Judge:
1 Samuel 4:18
And it came to pass, when he made mention of the ark of God, that he fell from off the seat backward by the side of the gate, and his neck brake, and he died: for he was an old man, and heavy. And he had judged Israel forty years.
But, the point I was making is that you cannot consider an entire account historically accurate just because one thing in that account can be supported from external evidence. That King Omri is mentioned in the Moabite Stone supports there being an historical biblical King Omri does not automatically mean that everything else in the Bible is true. Many legends have historically accurate crumbs in them, but it doesn’t mean the entire tale is true.
I disagree.
One could say the actual percentage of historical claims corroborated by the external evidence of the O.T. is miniscule.
But whatever degree of accuracy that your comment contains is purely a subjective assessment because the view assigns an inferior status to the Bible.
But, your opinion that I believe that there is a dearth of evidence to support most of what we are talking about because I do not place the Bible on a pedestal fails when we consider how many conservative fundamentalist scholars have
had to alter their opinions about the accuracy of the biblical texts. Albright, Glueck, Wright, and Bright for example, have ALL changed their opinion about the reliability of the biblical text when faced with not only the lack of external evidence, but with the huge amount of contrary evidence. But, we should keep this for when we get on to the archaeological part of the discussion, I think we should concentrate on the chronology of the ‘Judges interval’.
WT: Because it is an admission of bias/double standard. Go ahead and confirm the criticism of we theists.
I am still not sure what you are saying here, could you give an example that explains what you mean? (sorry)
Consistency is a positive attribute of reliability not a negative attribute of circularity.
Not when the consistency involves someone ignoring the evidence, some people consistently claim that the universe is 6000 years old, how is clinging to this fantasy a positive attribute?
Periods of servitude to heathen kings constitute links in the chronological chain while enemy affliction during the rule of a Judge does not. The length of the rule of the latter extends the chronological chain but the consecutive accounting of the two circumstances is without basis/severe error.
The length of the Judges interval is determined by totalling the periods of rule, either by a Hebrew Judge or a foreign king, while omitting durations of the oppressions.
All of the alleged omissions run concurrently within the chronology posted in
Ah, I see now. The Bible states that the periods of ‘serving’ the two kings is different from the periods of when a king simply oppressed Israel, I get it now. However, this still is a huge problem for this chronology. Rutherford wishes us to believe that during the four oppressions that I mentioned Israel still had a Judge, therefore, the years of oppression run concurrently with the rule of a judge and this does not extend the chronology. Again, though, this is contrary to what the Bible tells us.
Let’s take one example as the same criticism can be taken for all four ‘oppressions’.
In the case of Jabin who oppressed Israel for 20 years.
Judges 4:3
And the children of Israel cried unto the LORD: for he had nine hundred chariots of iron; and twenty years he mightily oppressed the children of Israel.
Then if we consider Judges 5:31
So let all thine enemies perish, O LORD: but [let] them that love him [be] as the sun when he goeth forth in his might. And the land had rest forty years.
The Bible claims that after the oppression had ended there was forty years rest in the land, the oppression cannot be counted as part of the 40 years. Think about it logically, how can a land have 40 years of rest AND contain 20 years of oppression at the same time, you can only have one or the other.
In fact, just to reinforce the point, look at the case of Gideon.
If you read Judges 6:1-7, it clearly tells of an oppression before Gideon speaks to God. Look what happens in those verses, Israel is delivered into the hand of Midian, the Israelites have to make homes in the mountains, they are oppressed by various other peoples as well, nothing was left for the Israelites no sheep, ox or ass, and finally, because Israel was greatly impoverished because of the Midianites it is only then that they cry to the LORD. It is not until Judges 6:12 that Gideon meets with the Angel of the Lord:
And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him, and said unto him, The LORD [is] with thee, thou mighty man of valour.
Judges 6:13 provides an explicit reference to deny the claim that Gideon began to Judge right after Deborah and Barak.
And Gideon said unto him, Oh my Lord, if the LORD be with us, why then is all this befallen us?
In post 219 you told us ‘Gideon: 1202-1162 [40 years] (Judges 8:28)
Barak/Deborah: 1242-1202 [40 years] (Judges 5:31)’
So you are implying that Gideon began to judge immediately after Barak/Deborah, but this is not supported by the text. 6:13 undoubtedly tells us that the Israelites had been oppressed for sometime before Gideon even spoke to the angel of the LORD. Why else would Gideon say ‘why has all this befallen us’? if he judged immediately after Barak/Debs then there would be no time at all for any oppressive actions by anyone, Gideon simply does not begin to judge straight after Barak/Deborah.
It is patently obvious that the Judgeship of Gideon did not begin straight after the Judgeship of Deborah and Barak. The oppression obviously had been underway for some time before the Israelites cried to God, it does not make sense any other way.
If that wasn’t enough, then read Judges 8:28
Thus was Midian subdued before the children of Israel, so that they lifted up their heads no more. And the country was in quietness forty years in the days of Gideon.
This can only be saying that Midian was subdued, the oppression was over and
ONLY then was there ‘quietness forty years’. Are you seriously suggesting that the oppression of the Israelites from Judges 6, where that are oppressed not only by Midian but by
the Amalekites, and the children of the east, even they came up against them , should be included within Gideon’s forty years! This is complete and utter claptrap.
How can you have ‘quietness for forty years’ and be oppressed for seven of these years, can you tell me what is ‘quiet’ (peaceful) about being forced out of your homes and having all your livestock killed? I am at a loss as how you can possibly harmonise this.
The key word is "oppression" and this occurred during the Judgeship of Deborah:
But the Judgeship of Debs and Barak is characterised by the forty years rest, again this cannot contain an oppression, read about the battles against Jabin, how can that possibly be during a forty year period of rest?
But the texts do not say that Jabin or the Philistines ruled the Israelites.
But, it does say that they oppressed Israel, and describes many deeds that are inconsistent with a period of rest or quiet in the land. You cannot have both WT, either the land is quiet or the land has oppressive activity on it, and the Bible tells us about many restless incidents which cannot possibly be contained within a period of quiet.
Hence the oppression of Jabin gives way to the stated duration of Deborah's rule. (40 years/Judges 5:31)
Exactly, the oppression
gives way to a forty year period of rest in the land, you simply cannot be oppressed and have peace throughout the land, this is a contradiction.
The twenty years of Samson falls within the 40 year Philistine oppression, which said oppression began with Ibzan followed by Elon and then Abdon.
Ibzan was a northern stationed Judge of Zebulon while Samson is famous for his Philistine conquests in the south (present day Gaza).
Already cited is the passage which states Samson ruled "in the days of the Philistines" (Judges 15:20)
Yes, we can take Samson out of the equation (for now at least) as his Judgeship is a local one and does not affect the overall period.
The total years of Ibzan, Elon, and Abdon are 25 years, which leaves the Philistine oppression continuing for another 15 years. 1Samuel 4:17,18; 5:2; 6:1,21; 7:11-13 records that the Philistine oppression came to an end during Samuel's first year which began at the death of Eli who held the office of High Priest for 40 years.
Whoa there WT, there is a lot of information in that paragraph that is patently untrue.
7:11-13 records that the Philistine oppression came to an end during Samuel's first year
This is complete and utter rubbish, your source is mutilating the biblical texts. If the Philistine oppression came to an end during Samuel’s first year then this must mean, by your chronology, that the Philistine oppression ended within a year of Eli’s death.
But the Bible does not support this claim in any way, shape or fashion.
Eli dies when he hears about the Ark being taken by the Philistines.
1 Sam 4:11
And the ark of God was taken; and the two sons of Eli, Hophni and Phinehas, were slain.
1 Sam 4:18
And it came to pass, when he made mention of the ark of God, that he fell from off the seat backward by the side of the gate, and his neck brake, and he died: for he was an old man, and heavy. And he had judged Israel forty years.
It is within a year of this that, according to you, the Philistine oppression ended, is this supported by the text?
1 Sam 6:1
And the ark of the LORD was in the country of the Philistines seven months.
We have Philistines still with the Ark seven months later, which gives you less than 5 months to end the oppression.
Eventually the Ark came to Kirjathjearim
1 Sam 7:2
And it came to pass, while the ark abode in Kirjathjearim, that the time was long; for it was twenty years: and all the house of Israel lamented after the LORD.
The Ark was at Kirjathjearim for twenty years WT and we still have Israel being oppressed by the Philistines!
1 Sam 7:7
And when the Philistines heard that the children of Israel were gathered together to Mizpeh, the lords of the Philistines went up against Israel. And when the children of Israel heard [it], they were afraid of the Philistines.
There was at least 20 years and 7 months between Eli dying and the end of the Philistine oppression, the Bible is quite clear about this, so the claim that the Philistine oppression ended within a year of Eli’s death is untrue.
which began at the death of Eli who held the office of High Priest for 40 years.
Are you denying that Eli was a Judge?
Ibzan, Eli the priest, and the 40 year Philistine oppresssion all began in the same year.
You are contradicting yourself.
Eli judged Israel for forty years then died, and according to you Samuel’s Judgeship began immediately upon Eli’s death
‘Samuel's first year which began at the death of Eli’. But now you want a period of 14 years when there was no Judge or ruler!
Now, if the oppression began in the same year that Eli’s Judgeship began and both periods are forty years, who on earth was Samuel fighting at Mizpah? According to your source the oppression ended more than 20 years earlier!
When Abdon and Samson died, which corresponds with the latter years of Eli the priest no civil Judge or ruler came to power
So why do you have Samuel’s judgeship beginning at the death of Eli if there was no Judge at that time, make up your mind.
hence the passages in the book of Judges describe this period, "in those days there was no king in Israel, but every man did that which was right in his own eyes." (Judges 17:6; 18:1; 19:1; 21:25)
There was no king at all in any period of Israel’s past before Saul, what relevance does this have, apart from informing us that this passage is a late addition to the text?
The Midianite oppression began at the close of Deborah's rule (40 years)(Judges 6:1) and the deliverance came by the hand of Gideon (40 year rule).
Yet the Bible is quite clear about the gap between Debs and Gideon.
Judges 8:28
Thus was Midian subdued before the children of Israel, so that they lifted up their heads no more. And the country was in quietness forty years in the days of Gideon.
Gideon evidently subdued the Midianites before the forty year period of quietness in the land, you cannot have these great battles that the Bible describes during a period of quietness! Think about what you are saying.
The 18 year Ammonite oppression was during Judge Jair and overlapped into the first year of Jephthah.
Can you provide support for this?
The key to the above system of chronology reckoning is the accounting of a Judge's length of rule, a foreign king's length of rule and then the subsequent placement of the 4 oppressions into one or more of these rulerships.
The key seems to be to ignore the biblical texts. How can you insist on placing a period of oppression into a period of peace?
Because the book of Judges specifically states when a heathen king ruled the Israelites (2 times) this becomes the basis to not count any of the oppressions in the chronological chain.
It actually says no such thing.
Lets get something straight:
I have presented a chronology that incorporates what I believe the Bible records.
Well, as we have seen, if you reread the Bible you will see that the Bible evidently does not record what you believe it does.
The Bible must contain a year for the Exodus and my post 219 says it is 1453 BC. Thousands of scholars will say the Bible records a different date than mine.
Nobody's date is proveable beyond falsification. I and my sources merely dare to commit to a date.
Which has just been falsified.
Think about this WT, if thousands of scholars claim that the Bible records a different date than yours, does this not suggest that it is impossible to pinpoint an exact date? If it were possible to pinpoint an exact date then anyone who opposes this date would have to accept this exact date and abandon theirs. If Rutherford’s chronology was as exact as you think it is then he should have been able to convince everyone.
My 1453 date is a target that none of my opponents will ever agree, you all will find a year here or there to falsify it with - so be it.
It is not just a year or so out, Rutherford presents a horrific mutilation of the biblical texts.
You have already agreed that the Bible dates the Exodus 1446 BC.
I did say that date was approximate, I would date very few things to an exact date based on the Bible.
We are a mere 7 years apart.
Yes, I know, it is not a big deal to me, but you are insisting on an
exact date based on the biblical chronologies, which I believe is an impossible task.
Anyway, on to Josh and the Elders.
Rutherford assigns a 25 year span. It is not omitted.
It is not omitted, but it is clearly inaccurate. He claims that the period of Joshua AND the Elders ended after 25 years, this is untrue. Joshua died 25 years after Moses, but the Elders ruled on after Joshua died, anyone can see this WT, read the Bible.
Joshua 2:7
And the people served the LORD all the days of Joshua, and all the days of the elders that outlived Joshua, who had seen all the great works of the LORD, that he did for Israel.
The text explicitly says that the Elders outlived Joshua, and that the people served the Elders, they did not die at the same time as Joshua as Rutherford’s 25 year period demands, how can they outlive Joshua yet be bundled into the last 25 years of his life, Rutherford is ignoring the biblical texts yet again.
The text of Joshua 2:7 simply says that the Elders who outlived Joshua, that is his peers.
No it doesn’t, it ‘simply’ says that the people of Israel served the LORD all the days of Joshua
AND all the days of the Elders, read it, stop mutilating the text in an attempt to defend a ludicrous hypothesis.
When these persons died the Israelites immediately regressed into idol worship and God punished them accordingly at the hand of their enemies.
Again, you are incorrect, this is nothing at all similar to what the Bible text says. When Joshua died, a period of time passed in which all of Joshua’s generation died
THEN another generation arose that ‘knew not the LORD’.
Judges 2:10:
And also all that generation were gathered unto their fathers: and there arose another generation after them, which knew not the LORD, nor yet the works which he had done for Israel.
You have to allow some time for the Elders to pass away, for the remainder of Joshua’s generation to pass away, and then allow enough time for the next generation to arise and turn from God. Rutherford’s hypotheses has to have all this happen during Joshua’s lifetime as he has Cushan- rishathaim’s 8 year rule over the Israelites begin immediately at Joshua’s death, the whole hypothesis is a disaster.
Chapter VIII/Rutherford page 607:
"Both the Bible and Josephus say Joshua died at the age of 110 years.
The latter reference also states that Joshua's rulership continued for 25 years after the death of Moses. This period includes that of the Elders associated with Joshua.
But it doesn’t include the period of the Elders because some of the Elders outlived Joshua, surely you can read that in the text?
Why do you think Rutherford is ignoring the biblical texts yet again?
Joshua 13:1 states that he was "old and stricken in years" only 6 years after the entry into Canaan (Joshua 14:7,10).
This states that it was 5 years.
This indicates that the 25 years rule assigned to Joshua by Josephus includes the rule of Joshua and the Elders associated with him, for it is stated in Judges 2:7 that some of these outlived Joshua: "And the people served the Lord all the days of Joshua and all the days of the Elders that outlived Joshua."
Joshua and the Elders thus ruled for 25 years after the death of Moses about 6 weeks earlier.
Fine, we have Rutherford essentially claiming that Josephus’ 25 years for Joshua and the Elders is indeed accurate. The Bible itself does not give a time covered by Joshua and the Elders, but Rutherford goes outside of the Bible to find a 25 year timespan that fits his hypothesis. The problem I have is that Rutherford is only selecting references from Josephus that are helpful to his case, if Josephus was so reliable then why doesn’t Rutherford simply use Josephus’ dates for the time that passed between the Exodus and the 4th year of Solomon’s reign?
I had a quick look through some of Josephus’ works and he gives an exact time period for the period between the Exodus and Solomon’s 4th year.
Josephus
Antiquities Book 8 chap. 3 v.1
Solomon began to build the temple in the fourth year of his reign, on the second month, which the Macedonians call Artemisius, and the Hebrews Jur, five hundred and ninety-two years after the Exodus out of Egypt
Josephus quite clearly says that the period was 519 years, so if Josephus is reliable enough for us to depend on him for a timespan for the period of Joshua and the Elders, then why can we not accept his 519 years?
Antiquities Book 7 chap. 3 v. 2
Now the whole time from the warfare under Joshua our general against the Canaanites, and from that war in which he overcame them, and distributed the land among the Hebrews, (nor could the Israelites ever cast the Canaanites out of Jerusalem until this time, when David took it by siege,) this whole time was five hundred and fifteen years. Add the 4 years of Solomon and we have another reference for 519 years, Josephus seems pretty consistent here, but Rutherford rejects this information and accepts another from the same source!
But is Josephus reliable, it appears not because he gives another different timespan for the same period.
Antiquities Book 20 chap. 10 v. 1
Now the number of years during the rule of these thirteen, from the day when our fathers departed out of Egypt, under Moses their leader, until the building of that temple which king Solomon erected at Jerusalem, were six hundred and twelve.
Deary me, 612 years now is this accurate, if not then why not?
He repeats the information in Contra Apion
Contra Apion Book 2 v. 2
Solomon himself built that temple six hundred and twelve years after the Jews came out of Egypt.
So, how reliable is the 25 years that Josephus offers for the period of Joshua and the Elders? If this is reliable, then why are his dates between the Exodus and Solomon’s 4th year rejected?
Rutherford says Judges 2:10 is but narrative content informing the reader that persons unattached to Joshua became the majority population, hence their quickness to worship idols. This type of commentary reflects the evolution of the people from following God to their eligibility to receive the curses stated by Moses for not continuing in all things of the book of the law/covenant.
The very verses you argue that should receive a timespan in the chronology do not say anything about duration of time. They demonstrate the truth that God has no grandchildren - a theological truth.
Oh I see, so we have not to take this verse literally but we have to take all the ones that appear to support Rutherford’s hypothesis at face value? How do you know that all the other verses do not have a theological rather than a historical purpose?
Rutherford's source is Josephus/Antiquities VI, xiii,5.
Samuel reigns solo after the death of Eli for 12 years (1 year co-regency with Saul) and 18 years with Saul the King.
I thought after the death of Eli that there was a period of 14 years with no one judging or ruling?
What is the difference between a one year co-regency and judging for 18 years at the same time that Saul was king, this suggests a 19 year co-regency to me.
Where does the idea for a one year co-regency come from?
Samuel ruled 11 years solo, 1 year with Saul, then 18 years into the reign of Saul for a total of 30 years.
How do the events in your blue box spoil this?
It ruins it because Saul is anointed sometime after this 20 year period.
Eli dies when the Ark is taken, it remains at Kirjathjearim for 20 years and it is later that Saul is anointed.
First you say Josephus contradicts himself and is thus unreliable, then you use the same Josephus quote to harm a Rutherford argument. I don't get it.
I am using Josephus quotes to demonstrate to you that he is not a reliable source for this period of time, yet Rutherford uses the 25 year reference as if it is reliable. Surely you can see that Josephus is not exactly consistent in his work, so how do we know what Josephus references are accurate and what ones aren’t , or if they are all inaccurate?
Why is Rutherford only using the Josephus references that appear to aid him, and just ignores the ones that are of no use to him?
Acts 13:21
And afterward they desired a king: and God gave unto them Saul the son of Cis, a man of the tribe of Benjamin, by the space of forty years.
I do not want to further entangle the Saul issue until you respond.
How do we know that the Acts reference is accurate and that the 20 years presented by Josephus is inaccurate, what if Josephus was right, that would make the Acts quote wrong!
But, speaking of Acts 13:21, and that the forty years for Saul’s reign is reliable, why do we reject the verse that immediately precedes Acts 13:21?
Acts 13:20
And after that he gave (unto them) judges about the space of four hundred and fifty years, until Samuel the prophet.
The Book of Acts states that the period of the Judges was 450 years, so why are you rejecting this biblical text as being inaccurate? You are guilty of the same crime that you accuse me of!
As for Samuel I do not see a great need to haggle over 1 year unless you have virtually irrefutable evidence.
Samuel is the least of the problems.
As clearly stated in post 219 the INAUGURAL Jubilee cycle began the year of the Exodus/1453 BC. Fifty years later, which is the 10th year into the Conquest is the end of the inaugural Jubilee AND the FIRST year of the FIRST cycle. Hence years 1405 -1404 BEGINS the FIRST cycle.
I know what post 219 is proposing but it is not what the Bible says. The Bible says ‘when ye come into the land’, they took control of the land 5 years after the conquest began, NOT ten years. Where does the Bible say that they were to count the first cycle beginning ten years after they entered the land?
How can you argue evidence which I initiated does not support my claims ?
Because your ‘evidence’ is flawed and completely inaccurate.
What justification is there to IGNORE evidence.
You mean like ignoring where Josephus gives a time from of 592 years and another one of 612 years for the time between the Exodus and the 4th year of Solomon’s reign? How can you use one part of a book as being reliable and another part as being unreliable, when you work this out then you will realise why I do not accept the entire text.
Sources have to be critically analysed before they are used for historical reconstruction, you cannot just reject an entire text because there is one substantiated flaw in it and equally you cannot accept that the entire book is accurate because one claim looks sound.
IOW, the "only" source for the Exodus - a major section thereof must be capriciously avoided in order to prove the Bible incorrect.
Nothing is avoided, it gets dealt with and shown to be unreliable for reconstructing history. The Book of Judges was written over a long period of time by a variety of authors, we don’t know if the judges ruled concurrently or not, there is not enough information to decide if a judge was a local one or judge of all Israel. There are just too many loose ends here.
Paulk was bitterly complaining that Rutherford "ignores what the Bible says" I wonder if his criticism will apply to you in this issue ?
I think Paul knows enough about historical enquiry methods to understand why the entire biblical text is not taken as being reliable.
Like I said in post 219, mid 13th century theorists must arbitrarily ignore what the Bible says.
As must 15th century theorists, as I haven’t seen Acts 13:21 used for reconstructing this era. There are many other examples of course, such as the City of Rameses cannot be the city of Rameses because it is too young so it has to be a city that was there before Rameses, this is also ignoring the text.
You are refuted by your own words.
As are you.
I propose we randomly eliminate any archaeological evidence presented by theorists who want to substantiate the Bible incorrect because of their admission that they simply ignore the historical chronology of the Judges.
They don’t just ignore it, they give reasons why certain passages are unreliable. Look at the Shamgar verse, it is embarrassing that Rutherford even includes him as a Judge.
Anyone can assert the Bible to be inaccurate if they act like 300 to 400 years doesn't exist.
If you keep the 300-400 years then it is definitely inaccurate!
your blue box quote above tells any objective person that your Exodus date is without merit - based upon a narrow body of evidence interpreted to falsify the Bible.
There is o such thing as an objective person, and you have no idea what my body of evidence is.
Like I said in post 219, mid-13th century theorists accept a few passages to support their theory (out of context at that) while ignoring the rest.
They actually don’t do this, what they do is interpret certain verses in an attempt to give the Bible some credibility. But, you cannot reject an entire work because of a few errors, because a work is full of ideology and propaganda doesn’t mean that there is no history to be found in it.
I am pleased that you admit your approach straight out.
Why shouldn’t I? I am an honest person.
At least I do declare my approach, some people seem unaware that they take the same approach as I do.
You also admit that you were very tired when you typed your response and I see evidence of that it your replies. Feel free to amend things in lieu of this fact.
Yes, I have been a bit tired for the last few weeks, but I would need to be in a coma to miss Rutherford’s blunders.
I hope your present teaching assignment will provide a computer.
So do I!!
We have a weeks holiday starting on Friday 8th and I have been promised that I will have a password when we go back on the 18th, fingers crossed.
See you later.
This message has been edited by Brian, 10-06-2004 04:10 PM
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