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Author Topic:   Creationist Baumgardner: one of the top mainstream mantle/plate tectonics simulators!
Tranquility Base
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 114 (13899)
07-21-2002 8:43 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by edge
07-19-2002 10:49 AM


Edge
Those points raised on talk.origins are clearly very antgonistic and seem to have the same over simplification bias. I'm not a geophysicist. Has Baumgardner ever rebutted?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by edge, posted 07-19-2002 10:49 AM edge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by edge, posted 07-21-2002 9:46 PM Tranquility Base has not replied
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Tranquility Base
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 114 (13901)
07-21-2002 8:45 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by R. Planet
07-20-2002 9:45 PM


R. Planet True - but I wouldn't be suprprised if he has tenure - my bread and butter depends on my getting the next grant currently!

This message is a reply to:
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Tranquility Base
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 114 (13903)
07-21-2002 8:54 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by wj
07-21-2002 8:07 PM


wj
I plan to study Joe's details and how exreme and unrealistic these viscosities are. Whatever the case Baumgardner is a mainstream geologists of excellent repute. Maybe Baumgardner is preperared to push his model to an extreme becasue he suspects that something extreme generated this effect (eg accelerated decay). I can guarentee that he will not require multiple 'miracles'.
From my mainstream readings I am aware that nobody can model the detials of plate tectonics very well and that Baumgardner is at the top of the pack of those who play this game. In his spare time he has prodded his work in a creationists direction and I certainly do not expect it to be flawless.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by wj, posted 07-21-2002 8:07 PM wj has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by edge, posted 07-21-2002 9:44 PM Tranquility Base has not replied
 Message 22 by wj, posted 08-04-2002 10:43 AM Tranquility Base has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1706 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 19 of 114 (13908)
07-21-2002 9:44 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Tranquility Base
07-21-2002 8:54 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Tranquility Base:
... Whatever the case Baumgardner is a mainstream geologists of excellent repute.
Actually, he's not a geologist.
quote:
Maybe Baumgardner is preperared to push his model to an extreme becasue he suspects that something extreme generated this effect (eg accelerated decay).
No. The only thing driving Baumgardner on this is his interpretation of the bible.
quote:
I can guarentee that he will not require multiple 'miracles'.
Oh, no, it does. You cannot get the viscosities and heat flows without sterilizing the earth. That would include the ark.
quote:
From my mainstream readings I am aware that nobody can model the detials of plate tectonics very well and that Baumgardner is at the top of the pack of those who play this game.
Wow, I hope you never berate us for making assumptions. This is exactly what he has done and not very realistic ones at that.
quote:
In his spare time he has prodded his work in a creationists direction and I certainly do not expect it to be flawless.
My understanding is that this work is entirely outside his professional efforts. The subduction zones he has modeled look nothing like subduction zones that we can actually see.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Tranquility Base, posted 07-21-2002 8:54 PM Tranquility Base has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by blitz77, posted 08-05-2002 3:13 AM edge has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1706 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 20 of 114 (13909)
07-21-2002 9:46 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Tranquility Base
07-21-2002 8:43 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Tranquility Base:
Those points raised on talk.origins are clearly very antgonistic and seem to have the same over simplification bias. I'm not a geophysicist. Has Baumgardner ever rebutted?
But AIG is okay, eh? Not sure about Baumgardner's rebuttal. But it probably goes something like this, "The bible says so, and that's all I need!"

This message is a reply to:
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edge
Member (Idle past 1706 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 21 of 114 (13911)
07-21-2002 9:52 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Tranquility Base
07-21-2002 8:40 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Tranquility Base:
Yes runaway subduction is our standard model. We think it is in the ballpark. You can rule it out if you want but that's like ruling out Schrodinger becasue his equaiton didn't account for spin. It is early days, runaway subduction is a hint in the right direction. It's not the be all and end all.
Let's see, have you explained yet how you fit all of that volcanism and tectonism into 2000 years, yet? It would seem to me that this would be a good time to do that. This should be an easy answer if you are in the right ballpark.
quote:
If you weren't so antagonistic instead you would use the boiling away as a constraint on the model and say - oops - maybe not all of the oceran floor was subducted, perhaps it happened over decades etc etc.
It is your model. You need to make the adjustments. Besides, you don't have decades.
quote:
Your approach is very much overly simplistic.
Right, I'm the one that brings up details that you cannot explain, but I'm the one being simplistic.
quote:
We already know the whole shebang wasn't completed until after the tower of Babel. I would not insert plate tectonics into a one year period like you are trying to force us to do. That gives time for the energy to disipate not even mentioning errors in the estimate of the energy.
WEll, then, give us a time frame. The way I see it, you have from the flood to about 2000 years ago, max.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Tranquility Base, posted 07-21-2002 8:40 PM Tranquility Base has not replied

  
wj
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 114 (14823)
08-04-2002 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Tranquility Base
07-21-2002 8:54 PM


Bump
So, TB, after your study of Joe's details, how many miracles has Baumgardner's model been reduced to?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Tranquility Base, posted 07-21-2002 8:54 PM Tranquility Base has replied

Replies to this message:
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Tranquility Base
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 114 (14830)
08-04-2002 10:13 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by wj
08-04-2002 10:43 AM


I haven't got into the maths yet wj.
I personally suspect that the miracle will be an impulse of radioheating. Sure, God also prepared Noah for that mission on the ark. It was the world's most amazing adventure ever. I love the Apollo program but Noah was bigger even though earth bound.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by wj, posted 08-04-2002 10:43 AM wj has not replied

  
blitz77
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 114 (14844)
08-05-2002 3:13 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by edge
07-21-2002 9:44 PM


quote:
Actually, he's not a geologist.
quote:
B.S. Electrical Engineering, Texas Tech University - 1968
M.S. Electrical Engineering, Princeton University - 1970
M.S. Geophysics and Space Physics, UCLA - 1981
Ph.D. Geophysics and Space Physics, UCLA - 1983
If hes not a geologist, is he a geophysicist then?
[This message has been edited by blitz77, 08-05-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by edge, posted 07-21-2002 9:44 PM edge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Joe Meert, posted 08-05-2002 6:52 AM blitz77 has not replied
 Message 26 by edge, posted 08-05-2002 11:49 PM blitz77 has replied

  
Joe Meert
Member (Idle past 5679 days)
Posts: 913
From: Gainesville
Joined: 03-02-2002


Message 25 of 114 (14850)
08-05-2002 6:52 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by blitz77
08-05-2002 3:13 AM


quote:
Originally posted by blitz77:
quote:
Actually, he's not a geologist.
quote:
B.S. Electrical Engineering, Texas Tech University - 1968
M.S. Electrical Engineering, Princeton University - 1970
M.S. Geophysics and Space Physics, UCLA - 1981
Ph.D. Geophysics and Space Physics, UCLA - 1983
If hes not a geologist, is he a geophysicist then?
[This message has been edited by blitz77, 08-05-2002]

JM: He is a mantle modeler. He is out of the closet and professes young earth creationism at meetings such as AGU whilst hypocritically sponsoring old earth posters in another room. Baumgardner's model is good, but it is not the best there is. As with all computer models, they will give answers, but GIGO. Baumgardner's model can be tweaked to show there is no possibility for plate tectonics as well. The key is to match observations with the models. His Noachian model is not supported by any observational data.
In fact, the observations are unambiguously opposed to his model. By the way TB, Baumgardner, while a hypocrite, publicly announces his christianity and ye-stance unlike many other closet hypocrites who pretend to be something else for a buck or two.
Cheers
Joe Meert
[This message has been edited by Joe Meert, 08-05-2002]

This message is a reply to:
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edge
Member (Idle past 1706 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 26 of 114 (14882)
08-05-2002 11:49 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by blitz77
08-05-2002 3:13 AM


quote:
Originally posted by blitz77:
quote:
Actually, he's not a geologist.
quote:
B.S. Electrical Engineering, Texas Tech University - 1968
M.S. Electrical Engineering, Princeton University - 1970
M.S. Geophysics and Space Physics, UCLA - 1981
Ph.D. Geophysics and Space Physics, UCLA - 1983
If hes not a geologist, is he a geophysicist then?

Well, I don't see 'Geology' anywhwere in those degrees so there isn't even a question of IF he's a geologist. As to the geophysicist part of the question, I suppose so. However, keep in mind that there are two types of geophysicist: those that understand geology and those that don't. Baumgardner, I assure you, is one of the latter.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by blitz77, posted 08-05-2002 3:13 AM blitz77 has replied

Replies to this message:
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blitz77
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 114 (14953)
08-07-2002 8:48 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by edge
08-05-2002 11:49 PM


quote:
However, keep in mind that there are two types of geophysicist: those that understand geology and those that don't. Baumgardner, I assure you, is one of the latter.
I thought mantle convection, dynamics and plate motion goes under the domain of geophysics. Which he most definitely understands, Baumgardner has published articles on mantle convection and dynamics, plate motion, geodynamic earth models since 1982, which is 20 years ago in collaboration with many other famous geophysicists. So he has plenty of experience in this field. That means that he should easily qualify as a person who would know a lot about this topic.

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 Message 26 by edge, posted 08-05-2002 11:49 PM edge has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Joe Meert
Member (Idle past 5679 days)
Posts: 913
From: Gainesville
Joined: 03-02-2002


Message 28 of 114 (14955)
08-07-2002 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by blitz77
08-07-2002 8:48 AM


quote:
Originally posted by blitz77:
quote:
However, keep in mind that there are two types of geophysicist: those that understand geology and those that don't. Baumgardner, I assure you, is one of the latter.
I thought mantle convection, dynamics and plate motion goes under the domain of geophysics. Which he most definitely understands, Baumgardner has published articles on mantle convection and dynamics, plate motion, geodynamic earth models since 1982, which is 20 years ago in collaboration with many other famous geophysicists. So he has plenty of experience in this field. That means that he should easily qualify as a person who would know a lot about this topic.

JM: Actually, his publication record is rather meagre for someone with 20+ years of experience in the field. He has one first author book and 8 co-authored papers. Having said that, let's give credit where credit is due. He developed the Terra model and it is a useful (though not the best) code for mantle dynamics. He is most definitely a geophysicist though he is NOT a geologist. He has good knowledge of mantle dynamics and kinematics. He also knows quite well that computer models such as his will give answers dependent on the input. One can make the mantle do just about anything if one plays with the parameters. So this complex computer algorithm results in rapid drift. One only has to assume unrealistic models for mantle viscosity to get this result, but the result has some very simple consequences. One of them is the amount of heat released during this 'collapse' and the second is the depth profile of the oceanic crust. I've dealt with the first one at THE DEPTHS OF THE OCEANS . Others have discussed the heat problem. The simple answer is that garbage into Terra results in a global flood (garbage out).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by blitz77, posted 08-07-2002 8:48 AM blitz77 has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Joe Meert
Member (Idle past 5679 days)
Posts: 913
From: Gainesville
Joined: 03-02-2002


Message 29 of 114 (14994)
08-07-2002 8:59 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Joe Meert
08-07-2002 10:18 AM


I should add that Baumgardner has a number of abstracts published as well, but these are not considered as peer-reviewed. Note that with his publication record, it is unlikely that Baumgardner would have received tenure at most major universities in the US.
Cheers
Joe Meert

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Tranquility Base
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 114 (15001)
08-07-2002 10:26 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Joe Meert
08-07-2002 8:59 PM


^ Yes Baumgardner hasn't played the academic game as you and I are, true. But there is a lot of good long-term work that goes on at these institutes where the publicaiton records are frequently not what we would call stunning. A lot of these places do on-going development and operational work to the detriment of their publication records. Becasue they are not caught up in the game they do not necesarily send of a manuscript everytime they put 2 and 2 together like we do.
[This message has been edited by Tranquility Base, 08-07-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Joe Meert, posted 08-07-2002 8:59 PM Joe Meert has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Joe Meert, posted 08-08-2002 7:50 AM Tranquility Base has replied

  
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