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Author Topic:   Who can be saved? A Christian perspective
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 91 of 460 (148483)
10-08-2004 5:37 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by mike the wiz
10-08-2004 3:26 PM


Prove it - you asserted it.

Doesn't work like that. He who makes the positive assertion - that an entity exists - must prove. Not he who questions that assertion.

Now you can see were this friendly message gets you Jar

What's friendly about the arrogant presumption of my reations? Moreover, what was unfriendly about my most? Jar made a mistake about how I would react; I merely corrected him.

Thus, Crashfrog - I fully expect that you are indeed as good as your word - and go about ending "real suffering in the world" because of your words against Jar's post.

I do what I can. But then, nobody claims that I have infinite power over life and death, now do they?

when infact he heals people even daily.

Who? Who got healed today by God?

Because you see suffering - you assume God cannot exist - and/or has sat on his arse.

Which, by definition, must be the case. The existence of unameliorated suffering is not consistent with the nature of God as he has been defined.

You cannot credit him with suffering alone, you're ignoring the good things people have claimed - from God.

Irrelevant. The fact that you're doing ok in the UK doesn't change the fact that someone is starving to death in Ethiopia. God's blessings on you don't erase someone else's suffering.

Shall you spit it in his face?

I'll say "that's a good start, but you couldn't have done any better? Show me why."

It's a lose-lose situation with these guys - and you have to learn it!

Tell ya what. Keep your mouth shut about what atheists will or won't do, and I'll never have to talk to you again.

But if you insist on insulting my beliefs, prepare to have the favor returned.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by mike the wiz, posted 10-08-2004 3:26 PM mike the wiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by jar, posted 10-08-2004 5:40 PM crashfrog has responded
 Message 96 by mike the wiz, posted 10-08-2004 5:59 PM crashfrog has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31071
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 92 of 460 (148485)
10-08-2004 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by crashfrog
10-08-2004 5:37 PM


Kermee,

Jar made a mistake about how I would react; I merely corrected him.

IIRC correctly I said you will be astonished. Not pleased, not happy, but astonished. Was that so incorrect? Will you not be astonished to find out that there is a GOD and afterlife?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by crashfrog, posted 10-08-2004 5:37 PM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by crashfrog, posted 10-08-2004 5:42 PM jar has not yet responded

  
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 93 of 460 (148486)
10-08-2004 5:41 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by mike the wiz
10-08-2004 4:44 PM


What about all the times God has intervened to stop things - with you being ignorant of it?

What times, specifically, are you referring to?

Example; Hambre is walking for the paper

When did this happen?

Why are you trying to substantiate the reality of an entity with hypothetical situations? That's like if I tried to say that Superman existed, and that we knew it because he saved people.

"When?" you might ask. "For example," I reply, "you're falling off a building, and Superman swoops up to save you." "When did that happen?" you ask. "Well, it didn't," I reply. "It's hypothetical. But suppose it did!"


This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by mike the wiz, posted 10-08-2004 4:44 PM mike the wiz has not yet responded

  
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 94 of 460 (148488)
10-08-2004 5:42 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by jar
10-08-2004 5:40 PM


Will you not be astonished to find out that there is a GOD and afterlife?

No. I'll be pissed off, like I said.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by jar, posted 10-08-2004 5:40 PM jar has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-08-2004 5:59 PM crashfrog has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12577
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 95 of 460 (148494)
10-08-2004 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by crashfrog
10-08-2004 5:42 PM


Amateur Hour
Crashfrog, bear with me...I want to play a bit of amateur psychologist, here. Answer me a couple of questions.
1) How was your relationship with your Dad or Father figure that you had while growing up? Is there any anger surrounding this situation?
2) My guess(which is probably wrong) is that you had some issues in this area.

This message has been edited by Phatboy, 10-08-2004 05:00 PM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by crashfrog, posted 10-08-2004 5:42 PM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by crashfrog, posted 10-08-2004 6:03 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply
 Message 98 by Dan Carroll, posted 10-08-2004 6:05 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4659
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 96 of 460 (148495)
10-08-2004 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by crashfrog
10-08-2004 5:37 PM


Doesn't work like that. He who makes the positive assertion - that an entity exists - must prove. Not he who questions that assertion.

It was you who asserted his none-existence though. If you want to start a new thread then do that, but what has this got to do with who can be saved?

I do what I can. But then, nobody claims that I have infinite power over life and death, now do they?

Mankind could end all suffering tomorrow - if each man tried, - so even if we do what we can, our claims are less than our actions I'm afraid.

So what if God asks why you didn't devote your life to this like Christ did?

Can you say that you were more interested in your own life? And if after your argument with God was over, who would win? Can you judge God or would your efforts be futile?

Which, by definition, must be the case. The existence of unameliorated suffering is not consistent with the nature of God as he has been defined.

Listen, God has endowed us with the full capabilities to turn away from sin and selfishness, the problems for the innocent sufferers - is their uncaring human beings. God however - does provide food for me each day - you cannot only count the starving people - like Christ said - the last shall be first. And infact Christ still heals today - we have documented miracles that even doctors agree on.

Irrelevant. The fact that you're doing ok in the UK doesn't change the fact that someone is starving to death in Ethiopia. God's blessings on you don't erase someone else's suffering.

Nor do sufferings remove reality - that God is!

I'll say "that's a good start, but you couldn't have done any better? Show me why."

Would you die on a cross? Would you willingly die in agony for the likes of you, who would say the above quote?

Tell ya what. Keep your mouth shut about what atheists will or won't do, and I'll never have to talk to you again.

Listen, I didn't mean to offend, but come on - you came on this thread guns blazing while we were on topic about who is saved.

I wouldn't go so far as to say I never want to talk to you again, but who's attacking who? Weren't we just discussing salvation? Yet it seems you don't even want salvation.

Nevertheless, sorry if I offended you Crash - I promise I didn't mean to - I thought you didn't even like atheism.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by crashfrog, posted 10-08-2004 5:37 PM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by crashfrog, posted 10-08-2004 6:10 PM mike the wiz has responded
 Message 108 by nator, posted 10-09-2004 8:50 AM mike the wiz has responded

  
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 97 of 460 (148497)
10-08-2004 6:03 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Thugpreacha
10-08-2004 5:59 PM


1) How was your relationship with your Dad or Father figure that you had while growing up? Is there any anger surrounding this situation?

He was a great father, still is, and we keep in regular touch.

My guess(which is probably wrong) is that you had some issues in this area.

You, in fact, are completely wrong. The reason I'm an atheist is not because I'm crazy or abused. The reason I'm an atheist is because I see no evidence of God's existence.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-08-2004 5:59 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 98 of 460 (148501)
10-08-2004 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Thugpreacha
10-08-2004 5:59 PM


Re: Amateur Hour
How was your relationship with your Dad or Father figure that you had while growing up? Is there any anger surrounding this situation?

Wow.

Crash expresses three views... a disbelief in God, an empathy for his fellow suffering human beings, and a belief that someone with the power to help others should do so.

So clearly, there's some sort of trauma in his past.

How incredibly insulting.


"If I had to write ten jokes about potholders, I don't think I could do it. But I could write ten jokes about Catholicism in the next twenty minutes. I guess I'm drawn to religion because I can be provocative without harming something people really care about, like their cars."
-George Meyer, Simpsons writer
This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-08-2004 5:59 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31071
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 99 of 460 (148502)
10-08-2004 6:06 PM


Can we head back towards the topic
if you please?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
  
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 100 of 460 (148505)
10-08-2004 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by mike the wiz
10-08-2004 5:59 PM


It was you who asserted his none-existence though.

Right. Which means that if you disagree, it's up to you to prove it.

If you want to start a new thread then do that, but what has this got to do with who can be saved?

Fuck if I know. I didn't start this tangent.

So what if God asks why you didn't devote your life to this like Christ did?

Because it doesn't pay the rent. But your God has none of my limitations and all the powers I don't have. His responsibility is therefore greater. As great, in fact, as is power to intercede.

And if after your argument with God was over, who would win?

I'm ameinable to being convinced. If God can convince me that he did what he could, I'll accept that.

But nothing I've heard so far is convincing. Your only argument so far has been that I'm a bad person for even daring to ask.

Listen, God has endowed us with the full capabilities to turn away from sin and selfishness, the problems for the innocent sufferers - is their uncaring human beings. God however - does provide food for me each day - you cannot only count the starving people - like Christ said - the last shall be first. And infact Christ still heals today - we have documented miracles that even doctors agree on.

Blah blah blah. Irrelevant nonsense. You haven't addressed my point - suffering is inconsistent with a benevolent, all-powerful God.

"Benevolent" means that God doesn't want us to suffer. "All-powerful" means that there are no obstacles to his intervention, if he wills it. So, the presence of suffering means that God is not one of those two things, or not either of them. The presence of suffering is inconsistent with the existence of a God who wants us not to suffer and has all the power to make it happen. By definition, this is true. It's irrefutable.

Would you die on a cross?

If I had God's power, I wouldn't have to.

Weren't we just discussing salvation?

It would seem we were discussing atheism, via Jar's post.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by mike the wiz, posted 10-08-2004 5:59 PM mike the wiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by mike the wiz, posted 10-08-2004 6:16 PM crashfrog has responded

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4659
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 101 of 460 (148511)
10-08-2004 6:16 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by crashfrog
10-08-2004 6:10 PM


Fuck if I know. I didn't start this tangent.

Okay - maybe my post was a lil long in my reply to you, still - I dunno what you're getting so stirred up about, you've in times past said that you don't recommend atheism.

Okay, I'll let you win so we can go back to the topic, but I mean - I still say you wanted an argument coming over here. I disagree with your points, but now Jar is calling us back to the topic - fine, you'd want God to convince you and you think he should stop suffering, they're are understandable positions from your worldview - I will shut up like Dan suggested. Also - I wouldn't call you a bad person, or atleast I don't think I did.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by crashfrog, posted 10-08-2004 6:10 PM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by crashfrog, posted 10-08-2004 6:37 PM mike the wiz has responded

  
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 102 of 460 (148518)
10-08-2004 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by mike the wiz
10-08-2004 6:16 PM


Okay - maybe my post was a lil long in my reply to you, still - I dunno what you're getting so stirred up about, you've in times past said that you don't recommend atheism.

Yeah, but that doesn't mean that I want to be patronized in the way Jar's post was patronizing.

I still say you wanted an argument coming over here.

No, I want legitimacy for my views on God, just like you do. I want theists to stop patronizing atheists. Every time I turn around, some theist is patting an atheist on the head and saying "that's nice, kid. Run along and let the adults talk." It grates.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by mike the wiz, posted 10-08-2004 6:16 PM mike the wiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by mike the wiz, posted 10-08-2004 6:50 PM crashfrog has responded

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4659
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 103 of 460 (148521)
10-08-2004 6:50 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by crashfrog
10-08-2004 6:37 PM


I want theists to stop patronizing atheists. Every time I turn around, some theist is patting an atheist on the head and saying "that's nice, kid. Run along and let the adults talk."

I didn't know you felt like that, listen - okay Crash - I'm sorry, let's just forget our exchange as distress amongst hotheads.

Honestly, I have no intentions to patronise anyone. If I have to say sorry any more, my face will be burning all night.

You views are "fair enough" in mike's book, I don't want to attack ur beliefs you see...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by crashfrog, posted 10-08-2004 6:37 PM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by crashfrog, posted 10-08-2004 6:53 PM mike the wiz has responded

  
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 104 of 460 (148522)
10-08-2004 6:53 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by mike the wiz
10-08-2004 6:50 PM


You views are "fair enough" in mike's book, I don't want to attack ur beliefs you see...

Well, and likewise. I never mean to attack your beliefs, only your arguments, and only when I think they're wrong.

It's fine for you to believe in God, and I would never presume to belittle someone for doing so. Though I have belittled those who advance faulty logic to try to convince others. I hope the distinction is clear.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by mike the wiz, posted 10-08-2004 6:50 PM mike the wiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by mike the wiz, posted 10-08-2004 7:13 PM crashfrog has not yet responded

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4659
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 105 of 460 (148533)
10-08-2004 7:13 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by crashfrog
10-08-2004 6:53 PM


Okay then, mike will let you of for now - but then he'll attempt some correct logic on you later on, cos he doesn't know when to quit.

BTW. You can inform us of what you think is more correct and join in, as I for one would like to know what your side thinks - Is the christians view of saved by Christ - repenting etc,,..more accurate to you - or what Jar says concerning Mathew 25. Because this has been a good discussion so far - rather than a debate, I must say.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by crashfrog, posted 10-08-2004 6:53 PM crashfrog has not yet responded

  
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