Dating the Exodus

No, it shows a far different picture than on of invasion. In fact, there is not even a hint of invasion.There is also the fact that the term Habiru is not a designation of a particular people but rather a generic term similar to brgand or highway robber. If you look at EA 288 you will find the term used in just that manor, as a disparaging term and not of a particular people.

quote:

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EA 288

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Speak to the king, my lord, my sun,

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Thue Abdi-hepa, your servant.

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At the two feet of the king, my lord,

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seven tmes and seven times I fall.

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(5)Look! The king, my lord, has established

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his name from the rising of the sun

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to the seting of the sun. They have

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committed villany against me.

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Look! I am not a governor

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(10) or an officer of the king my lord.

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Indeed! I am a friend of the king, my lord,

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and a bearer of royal tribute.

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It was not my father nor my mother,

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but the strong arm of the king that

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(15) established me in the house of my father.

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[the text is broken]

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....reached me....

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I gave ten servants to him.

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Shuta, the royal commissioner of the king came

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(20) to me. I gave 21 young women,

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and 80 prisoners to Shuta as a gift to the king, my lord.

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Let the king take thought for his land;

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the land of the king is plundered.

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(25) All of it has been seized from me. There is hostility against me,

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as far as the land of Sherri, as far as Gint-kirmil,

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are all at peace, that is, for the Hazianuti,

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But there is hostility against me.

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I have become like the Habiru.

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(30)But I cannot see the two eyes of the king,

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my Lord. Because of the hostility that is

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against me, I have become

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like a ship in the midst of the sea.

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The strong arm of he king

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(35)can conquer Nahrima

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and Kapsi, but now

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the Habiru are taking the lands

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of the king.

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There is not one city-state ruler

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(40)belonging to the king, my lord. All of them are lost.

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Look! Turbazu was killed

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in the gate of the city of Zilu, but the king [did nothing].

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Look! Zimrida of Lachish

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was killed by servants who acted with the Habiru.

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(45)Yaptih-Adda was slain

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in the gate of Sillu....

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Should not the king inquire of them?

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So let the king take care of his land,

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and let the king take care of

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(50)the garrison for the land of tribute.

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Because if there is no garrison

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this year, all of the lands

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of the king, my lord, will be lost.

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Do not let them say to the king, my lord

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(55)that the land of the king, my lord,

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is lost,

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or that every one of the city-state rulers are lost.

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If there is no garrison

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this year, let the king send

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a governor, and let him take me

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(60)to you with my brothers.

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We are willing to die with the king, our lord.

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To the scribe of the king my lord,

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Abdi-Hepa, your servant says: At your two feet

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I have fallen. Send eloquent words to the king.

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I am your servant and your son.

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It requires a fertile imagination to see the term Habiru as a specific people or as the Hebrew. It is a discription of a time of instability, but again, no sign of invasion. It is a time of small internal revolts that extended over many years and was not an organized military invasion.This is carried through in EA 280.

quote:

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EA 280

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To the king, my Lord,

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My God, My Sun,

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Thus says Shuwardata

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Your servant, the dust of your feet.

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At the foot of the king, my master,

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My God and My Sun

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Seven times and seven times I fall.

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The King, my lord sent me

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(10)To engage Keilah

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in battle.

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I was fighting,

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(But) now there is peace with me;

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My city has been saved

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for me.

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Why did

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Abdi-Hepa send a message

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To the people of Keilah (saying),

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"Take silver and (20)come here behind me?"

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Now the king, my lord, should know

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that Abdi-Hepa has taken my city

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from me. Secondly, let the king my Lord, investigate.

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If I have taken a man,

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an ox, or as much as one donkey from him,

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then he is justified.

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(30) Further, Labaya,

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who took our cities is dead.

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And now, Abdi-Hepa has become

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a second Labaya, for

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he took our cities.

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Now let the king think about

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his servant on account of this deed.

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And he will not do anything

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until the king sends

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word to his servant.

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Again, no sign of a massive organized invasion but rather the termoild of city revolts and intrigue between various vassals.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Please show where in EA 280, 286 or 288 an invasion is shown?Please explain how EA 280 is a letter to the Pharoah accusing Abdu-Heba of exactly the same type behaviour that Abdu-Heba blames on others? Please show where Habiru is used as a designation of a particular people? Again, an unspecified expert ploy. This is so tenuous that even you wont make such a claim. There simply is no evidence that Habiru is a designation of the Hebrews.Finally, the estiamtes I've seen for dating the Jerusalem letters place them in the mid 1300s, too late for the 1447 Exodus and too early for the more reasonable mid 1200s Exodus.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Perhaps that is because neither of you has yet to make a vaid point.I have willingly admited that there are people who claim that Habiru equates to Hebrews. I then went on to point out exactly why they are incorrect.One more time. The term was commonly used from around 2000 through 1200 BCE as a generic term. It was used to describe people commonly seen as brigands, highway robbers, mercenaries, day labors, a placeless people of many descents. I pounted out that the term was used by the Sumerians, Akkadians as well as the Egyptians. It was used idiomatically as shown on EA 288. A more recent example might be the use of the term Romany or Gypsy.What is so hard to understand about that? I am sorry that you feel that way. I try to never unintentionally offend people.However, the key points are:a) The dating of the Jerusalem Armana letters do not support your verision of the Exodus.b) There is nothing in the Jersualem Armana letters that even hints at invasion, but rather City revolts, power struggles between the cities, and general discord.c) There is nothing in the Jerusalem Armana letters that points to an organized band that resembles the Biblical account of the Hebrews.In support of my position I posted copies of the three documents. I did not "quote mine" them, picking out only those senetences that supported my position. I have never desparaged you, your brother or any of the other supporters of the Video. I have countered your arguments.I have asked all of you to point to those places in the documents that show an invasion was happening.I have asked you good folk to defend your contention that Hibaru = Hebrew.The people that read this thread will decide if you have done either.edited to add required spelling errors.This message has been edited by jar, 08-15-2004 12:32 PM

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Actually, I just get really annoyed by shallow logic and misdirection. I don't think we should withhold information, quote mine and misrepresent to defend a particular point of view or position.For example, if you really wanted to support your assertion of the relation between Habiru and the Hebrew Nation, why didn't you include the next section from the Wikipedia section.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

The readers are intellegent folk. Give them all of the available information, that which supports a position as well as that which questions it. They are fully capable of making a judgement.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

About 60+ a few.edited to add, too young to have been an eyewitness for the Exodus. This message has been edited by jar, 08-15-2004 11:27 PM

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Born the same day the Casablanca Conference started.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Is that fully correct? I always felt that some, particularly the letter from Gubla (Biblos) that he used in his last post, point towards pressure coming from the Hittites and Amorites to the North. Biblos was along the Northern Border and the Hittites had recently conquered other Egyptian Vassals and Phoenician allies. So it seems to me there is some indication of outside pressure but I have not seen any indications of an Israel as described in Exodus.For example, consider EA 75

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Is that why you have failed to support the LLM discussion?edited to add a link just in case you couldn't find it. Check Message 41This message has been edited by jar, 08-16-2004 02:06 PM

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Hey WILLOWTREE, have you forgotten about the LMM thread at Message 41 or are you finally agreeing that the claims you made about the Great Pyramid are just crap?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I was not finding fault, but rather pointing out that in the Armana letters there are several specific mentions of outside forces, the Hittites, the Sea People, the Mittani, as examples. In many cases the Habiru or apiru as seen as being hired by or used by both the City-States and the outside powers.But the apiru or habiru are not mentioned as a unified force or people.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Can you point to the parts in the Armana Letters that support the Exodus?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

No problem WT. Take your time. Hopefully I'll see your post regardless of who it is directed towards.But just to refresh your memory, the question is "Which of the Armana letters is Rutherford using to support his assertions?"

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

BrianSince we are already past the 300 post count, is it time to close this and start another?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion