Who can be saved? A Christian perspective

Jar, your still living in your new-age fantasy. I understand if its your opinion, but you call yourself a christian??? Anyway, since your topic says a christian perspective, then i will give you a christian perspective. And no, athiests will not be saved if the God of the Bible is truth. This is barely an introduction to salvation but i couldnt be bothered writing much. A christian has to first be saved from the guilt and penalty of sin (death)(Epesians 2:5,8), Secondly a christian must be saved from the habit and dominion of sin in his life (Galatians 2:19,20), Finally when Christ returns, those who have put there faith in the Lord and in righteousness shall be caught up with Him and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Many will not take the offer of eternal life because of pride (i dont need to be saved from anything, im happy the way i am) ,sin problem (everything God tells me to not do is everything that i want to do), ignorance (dont care, f*ck God, whatever). In the Lords eyes, these people have chosen Satan and evil over Christ and righteousness, they shall not enter the kingdom of heaven (Revelation 20:15). The ONLY way to escape the second death of hell is to receive the free gift of eternal life which is given to us from Jesus Christ, the savior of all generations and times.And lastly for those who are interested in Gods prophecy. You can read on and see what the Old Testament had to say about the Gentiles (you and me).'And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand as a banner to the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious' Isaiah 11:10Wow, amazing! Jesus Christ wasnt brought for the Jews. He was brought so that we, non-jews shall also the chance to love and serve the Lord. We christians shall also forever be with the lord, while never forgetting his love for Israel and his eternal covenent with his people.'Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereatBecause narrow is the gate, and difficult is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it' Matthew 7:13-14This message has been edited by almeyda, 10-02-2004 05:45 AM

Indeed.

Yes, Among others.

Umm, yes i guess. Im not sure where your going with this.

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If that is the case, if GOD reached out to the Jews directly, the Gentiles through Jesus, why couldn't GOD reach out to the Muslims through Mohhamud, asians through Confucious, Buddha and Mencius and Mormons through Joseph Smith.

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The Gentiles are all nations, all generations, all times. It is not white people. Or just western nations. All nations. The God of the Bible tells us that besides him there is no other God. What you must realise is that some of the major religions are off-shoots of the Bible. 'Copy-cats' if you will. Books like the Quran & Book of Mormon have corrupted the God of the Bible. Not given 'better' revelations. They have denied, or distorted the truth of the Gospel. Havent you heard?, thus sayeth the Lord..."But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false prophets among you who secretly shall bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord that brought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction" 2 Peter 2:1"Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is anti-christ, that denieth the Father and the Son" 1 John 2:22Here we see that denying Christ as Lord, is a sin. These people surely will not be looked upon with mercy by God. They have followed not His word. But destructive heresies that deny Christ as Lord, and pervert the words of the Lord. Yet Mormons proclaim that Jesus is a spirit child, and a spirit-brother of lucifer. Muslim belief also puts Jesus as a high prophet, but not God. Buddhism is athiestic in its philosophy and therefore has denied Christ, and the Gospel. Which is completely irrational and illogical that athiests, according to Jars theory, will be saved.The fact that Jesus willingly recieved worship says alot about his true identity. Scripture teaches us that only God can be worshipped."To whom then will ye like me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy one" Isaiah 40:25"Who have wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the Lord, the first and with the last, I am he" Isaiah 41:4"I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God" Isaiah 44:6

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Look at Matthew 25. Where does it show any requirement for profession of Jesus, knowledge of Jesus, belief in Jesus or even an intent to acknowledge Jesus? In fact, where does it show a requirement to profess GOD, acknowledge GOD, worship GOD or even an intent to Love GOD?

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The seperation of the sheep and goats is the judgement of the nations. Sheep (saved) & goat (unsaved). Which means that those who didnt accept Christ as there 'Lord' and savior, will not inherit the kingdom.

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Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

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And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

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Clearly this is the judgement of the second death. The punishment of sin, ungodly man, & the unsaved.

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Matthew 25 is very clear. No interpretation is needed. It says if you have done it for the least of these, you've done it for GOD. It does not say Christians are saved and all others damned. It says those that have loved GOD will be saved even if they never intended to do so.

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Read Matthew 24:23-26, 1 Timothy 4:1. Think about the word Christian for a second. CHRIST-ian. Get it? This is why Jews and CHRIST-ians will all inherit the kingdom of God. Salvation for CHRIST-ians (Gentiles/you & me) is by grace through faith, not by works. As the Church of LDS believe. The moment we believe in Christ, we are 'justified' or 'declared righteous' before God."For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this not from yourselves, it is a gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast" Ephesians 2:8,9"No one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through law we become conscience of sin" Romans 3:20"He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy" Titus 3:5The truth of the Bible is that only those who accept Christ as there personal Lord, and savior. Will inherit the kingdom (Revelation 21:7,8)

To use your interpretation of Matthew 25, is to reject everything Jesus teaches. Because clearly Jesus teaches that only those who love and trust in him as there ONE & ONLY savior will live forever with him.

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But I think you may have totally misread Matthew 25 even though I provided it for you. Please point out the passage in Matthew 25 that says...

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The seperation of the sheep and goats is the judgement of the nations. Sheep (saved) & goat (unsaved). Which means that those who didnt accept Christ as there 'Lord' and savior, will not inherit the kingdom.

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Verse 32 says And he shall separate them one from another. This is about the seperation of the saved and the unsaved. You actually think Christ will bring athiests or satanics into his flock? You have lost your mind if you believe in that Jar. Thats why i think your living in a new-age fantasy which has those theories like we are all god and mother geisha will come save us all no matter who we are. Thats not the case with Christ. Christ is reality. Verse 41 clearly talks about the judgement of sin. Those who lived in sin and without Christ will be sent into the everlasting fire, prepared for the devil.

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I agree that there are false prophets but I also think it more likely that they are Christian Ministers than Mohammud.

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That may well be true. But we DO NOT judge the Bible or Jesus Christ with what man does in this world. Man is terribly sinful. You and me both know that no man has ever been of perfect character & soul, as Jesus Christ. Muhammad was not perfect, nor Buddha, nor Joseph Smith. Trust in the Lord Jesus Christ, it will be a choice you will never ever regret.

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35: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

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Is there anything in there that deals with what they believe, what they profess, what they say?

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All that which he is saying is symbolic for all those that have Christ in them. It does not mean those who didnt murder. Or those who loved there kids. It is those who took Jesus Christ into there hearts. Not Buddha, not Joseph Smith. You are taking this verse out of context for 2 reasons. One is that the Sheep are the saved, who are in Christ, and the unsaved are the goats who are departed into hell. And two, the interpretation you are using is contradicting Christs entire teachings. Which is Christ is the way, the truth and the life. NO man cometh unto the father except by me. I repeat NO man. Christ also teaches in Matthew 7:21-23 something about I never knew you. What his teaching is that many will profess love for Christ, or profess that we DID follow your teachings, we DID love one another. But they will not be saved. What does that tell you about people who dwell in other faiths, athiesm, other beliefs which contradict the gospel?And finally, Christ uses the same type of symbolic words in relation to those who gave him food, water to drink, and love, in Matthew 11:28-30. Which you can read for yourself if you wish. Eternity depends on it so dont wait until its too late.

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41: Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

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Where does that mention sin, belief, or anything other than "42: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not."

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Again, Christ is using minor-symbolic words to describe those who werent 'in Christ'. You are forgetting the first verse in that paragraph. They are sent to hell, and afterwards speaks about what they have done. This is the unsaved of all generations and times. And on this issue IMO there can be no debate. Those who arent in Christ will be the ones that have not gaven food, visited not, didnt take him in. The meaning of the verses, are very plain IMO. Unless theres a willingness on the readers part. To interpret Gods words so that every religion is saved. Every human is special unto God. Because mother geisha loves us all right?

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And not what most think of as sin, but rather a failure to follow the two Great Commandments.

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Love GOD and Love others as you love yourself

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Love God = Love Christ. It does not mean love Vishnu. So i hope you understand that loving God. Means loving Jesus Christ ONLY. It does not mean those who believe that the earth is God and loved it dearly will be saved. Again, quite obvious. And you also say love others as yourself. What about the sexually immoral? or those who love one another but are living in a new-age world and belive the earth is God? We cannot take that single verse and say do whatever you want except for these 2 things. If that were the case, God would have simply wrote that and nothing more. But he doesnt. The New Testament is filled with daily christian living. And you can be sure that following the law and loving a God does not mean salvation

Your living in a fantasy land. Because you are not taking the Bible seriously. Which i understand because youve already mentioned plenty of times you dont take it as history or literally. ANYWAY. Like i said before, you are taking this 1 verse out of the entire Bible. In particularly Jesus Christ. The whole New Testament is written for daily christian living until the second coming. You have rejected everything Christ has spoken on in relation to Christ being the only way, salvation for those who are in Christ, seperation forever to those who are without etc. You are turning a blind eye to all these things, in order to fit in your new-age theory. That God loves us all even as sinners, which yes he does. But mercy is only found with Jesus Christ. All this is basic christian doctrine. You claiming to be a christian should have no problem with this teaching.

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IMHO, what you are doing is exclusion. You are saying, "We have this little club and we're something special. No one that doesn't know the password and have the secret decoder ring can join."

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It is a club actually. But no its not small. Its the biggest religion in the world. You must understand what Christ teaches in his words. I am the way, the truth and the life, no man commeth unto the father but by me. And your use of symbolic words for our belief is very relevant too.'Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go thereatBecause narrow is the gate, and difficult is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it'So what does that tell you? There is a lock and a passward. But we have that password. And he is the God of the New Testament.

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I do not think that is the case. I believe that GOD is inclusion not exclusion. Matthew 25 is the directions on how to follow the Great Commandment. It tells you how to love GOD and how to love your fellow man. It clearly says that how you treat others is also how you treat GOD.

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You criticise my explanation of the verse, i would like to hear your interpretation of who are the goats who are sent into hell? Are they just the people that were really bad and killed?, those who werent in a religion? Because what i think is that the goats are the unsaved of all generations and times.'Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord shall enter the into the kingdom of heave: but he that doeth the will of my father which is in heavenMany will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?And then I will profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity'If you point out that God saying he that doeth the will of the father means what you think, your wrong. Because the entire New Testament is filled with daily christian living. And theres alot more to it then love the law and love a God.

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As I expected, you cannot show where belief, sin or professing faith appear in Matthew 25. And that's for a reason, it just is not there.

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You are not giving Jesus Christ food, or taking him into your home when you worship Buddha, or Vishnu. The verse talks about the saved who are in Christ, and the unsaved who are not in Christ. It is as simple as that. You are contradicting Christs teaching when you interpret his words in such a way as yours. Again, i would like to here your explaination of just who are those who are the "Depart from me, ye cursed into everlastingfire, prepared for the devil and his angels... And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternalIf you point out that 'the righteous' means anyone who is nice, and loves there kids. You would be wrong.

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But as I have said before, please feel free to explain salvation as you understand it.

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First of all, im a fundamentalist. I believe in divine creation, verbal inspiration and inerrancy of scripture, virgin birth of Christ, his deity, substitutionary atonement, bodily resurection, physical return, and a literal heaven and hell.SALVATION...The term implies deliverance. First, the christian has been saved from the guilt and penalty of sin (Ephesians 2:5,8). Second, the christian is being saved from the habit and dominion of sin in this life (Galatians 2:19,20). Lastly, when Christ returns, the christian will be saved from all the physical results of sin, of Gods curse on the world, and the judgement on sinReconciliation...Reconciliation is the act whereby God on the basis of Christs death, has eliminated the hostility between Himself and humanity, making possible a complete and maturing fellowship. The hostility was caused by sin, and was eliminated by the cross (2 Corinthians 5:19).Repentance...Repentance is necessary for salvation, but repentance alone does not save. It means to change ones mind about sin in such a way as to result in a change of action. Repentance is produced in the life by means of the word of God, a chastisement to the lord (Rev 3:19), belief of the truth, and a new vision of Jesus Christs character.CHRIST-ian living...A christian should live a holy life that reflects the nature of God, who saved him (1 Peter 1:16). A christian should apply biblical principals and avoid what is 1) against a biblical standard of purity, 2) against a biblical prohibition, 3) offensive to the conscience 4) failure to follow the example of Christ (1 Peter 2:21). And of course many more.Union with Christ...The uniqueness of the christian experience results from the union of Christ and the believer. In this relationship, the believer was crucified, dead, buried, made alive, raised, seated, & glorified. On the basis of this union, the christian believers life can be opened with four key words in Romans 6:6(know),11(reckon),13(yield),17(obey)The plan of salvation according to God is very clear yet at the same time demands your entire life to fully understand Gods will. There is also the forgiveness of sins, the security of the believer, prayer, and many more.

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That, to me, means just what it says. The vast majority of folk will never really understand the way and so will fail at it. They will be like the goats, surprised that they did not do as GOD wished, surprised to find they are being damned.

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No thats not what it means. Your changing Christs words again. What that verse means is that men will pursue destinys in their lives. Some will consider themselves athiestic, or independent. And will follow their own instincts. Others on the other hand, will find truth and discover the reality of life. Not just a belief that will make you 'happy', but a fact of life. We are created, and we are accountable for what we do at the end of our lives. With this option. One takes the 'harder' journey. The path of righteousness. A chance to be redeemed, when confronted by a just, and holy God.So basically, that verse is that some will choose the Lords way, which ends in eternal life, while the other, is eternal seperation. This world as it nears the times of the Anti-Christ are becoming very anti-god, & anti-christian. In its philosophy of what life is about, and how man decides his destiny is very much a part of society now. The Bible says in Psalms 9:17"The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God"

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I imagine those who were really bad, who committed murder or rape as an example, may have a pretty hard time being saved. At a minimum, they will have some big time explaining to do.

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So your saying, 'this' is as far as He should go. This is bad, but thats not that bad. One person says go this far, another says this far. A nazi christian, says that blacks wont be allowed. How far do you want God to go? If you want him to get rid of evil, the Bible says we got a wicked heart, he has to deal with us. The judgement of the nations, is not about personal problems with us as individuals. The judgement is of sin. And who can stand? The Bible CLEARLY teaches that those not in Christ, will not be saved.

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Those who weren't in a religion will likely have a far easier time getting in than any Christian. Afterall, as it says throughout the New Testament, the Christians will be held to stricter standards than those who have not become Christians.

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"And i saw the dead, small and great, stand before God, and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those books, according to their worksAnd the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their worksAnd death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second deathAnd whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire" Revelation 20:12-15IT IS AS SIMPLE AS THAT. These books contain the record of every unbeliever. The unbelivers will not have there names written in the book of life. Because they were not sons of God. If any of these unbelivers loved there kids, and didnt murder. They will not go into heaven."And what accord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an unbeliever?" 2 Corinthians 6:15"And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people" 2 Corinthians 6:16There is one God. And it is the God of the New Testament.

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Look at Matthew 25 again. Who were the goats? They were close friends, followers of Jesus, Christians or proto-christians, people that believed in him, worshipped him, followed him, and let him down. They did not love others as they loved themselves. They would have done anything for Jesus, but never understood that you cannot do something for GOD, you are incapable of doing anything for GOD. You can only do things for your fellow man.

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Christ says in verses 42-43, For i was hungered and ye gave me no meat, I was thirsty and ye gave me no drink etc, then as they plead with him after wasting their chance away, will plead that they did good, and yes we did love you. But salvation is lost, and Christ says And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteousness into life eternal.Righteousness is not planting trees, or saving the animals. It is being a son of the living God. And fearing the Lord, and all his commandments. Because fearing God is the only way that a man can realise the brevity of life, the judgement of sin. And the authority of the creator."As it is appointed unto men to die, but after this, the judgement" Hebrews 9:27

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The goats will be Christians. They will be good, GOD-fearing, church going, praying machine Christians. They will be folk like Gene Scott, Jerry Falwell, Oral Roberts, Jimmy Swaggart, Jim Bakker, Pat Robertson, Bob Larson, Billy Sunday, Hal Lindsey, Dr. Dino, John Morris, Walt Brown and the like. It will be chest thumping, brow beating, Christians that are bigots, that support the Defence of Marriage act, that do not just do what GOD asked folk to do, love others. He didn't say love Christians, he didn't say profess GOD, he said "Just do it".

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I have no idea if those are saved or not, weather they are is if they have followed the fundamentals of christianity. The fundamentals of the doctine of christianity. That Christ is Lord and Savior of all ages, and there is only one God. Any if you are not worshipping and bowing to Jesus Christ, then you are following a false God. Weather those people will be found righteousness, God only knows.But again your thoroughly confused about what Christ is about, and what he teaches. Because his entire words are meant for daily christian living. Not to doubt Christ, doubt the Bible, doubt his words, doubt the authority, doubt his deity. His given us his Revelation. And i hope you can find the time to read the verses in Revelation 22:18-19

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That's pretty clear. It says that those who profess belief, who say Lord, Lord, who are christians, may not get in. Of those, of the christians who show up, it will depend on what they did during their lives. If they followed the two Great Commandments, if they did the will of the Father, then they're in. And doing the will of the Father is doing unto others as you would have others do unto you.

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More new-age fantasy. You believe that living in harmony of the world, your fellow man, and the creation, makes you righteous?. Your seriously wrong, and seriously confused about all christian doctrine. What you have is the truth in your hands. But you doubt everything in the Bible, all Gods teachings and daily christian living and think that God is mother geisha and teaches us that if we live as gods, and respect the world, then we will be together with a god, and we will head to nirvana, all of us. But not those murdered, because there bad, nor pedaphiles. The sexually immoral will be saved because exploring your sexuality further enhances you god-ness. And it goes on and on and on and on. Im just guessing you think like that. Because thats the vibe i get when i see your interpretations of scripture

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Not necessarily. But when you feed a Buddhist, take him into your home, get to know and love him, listen to what he can teach you, you are Loving GOD.

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That is the stupidest thing ive heard so far. You are being a fellow humanitarian im sure, but you are not giving glory to God by doing that. Yes you should treat your fellow man with love, but this is simply because a christian has to personify the personality of the nature of God. This is the only way a christian can show righteousness. But it does not mean that buddhist is saved. He is living under the guidence of an athiest. Your job is to save him, and turn him to the living God. And then you will glorify the Lords name. The root meaning of evangelist, is "to bring good tidings" or "to bring the gospel message".Just more of the duties and responsibility we have been given then just love a God, love the creation, and love the fellow man.NEW TESTAMENT = DAILY CHRIST-ian LIVING

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They are, among others, Christians that never understood what GOD's message was. They are Christians who believed they could get by without doing what GOD asked us to do, Love GOD and to love others as we love ourselves.

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Its quite hilarious that every time God speaks about sending people to hell, that you assume that only christians will be sent there. Sinners however will be accepted no worries, except those who murdered, because there 'too' bad. Anyway, Christians love and glorify the Lord, on a daily basis, they pray and have a personal relationship with God. Jesus Christ has forgiven there sins and if they are geniune, and repent, eternal life is granted thrugh faith and obedience."Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things become new" 2 Corinthians 5:17"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness, and abbundance of wickedness, and recieve with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your soulsBut be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves" James 1:21-22Those who sin, while in Christ. Can still be redeemed, because they put there faith in the Lord on a daily basis, and are forgiven through the blood of the lamb. There will be christians in hell. Because they werent christian, but rather lived with the nations and men that worshipped the doctrines and beliefs of corruptible man. And never repented of their sins, nor worshipped the living God. And so will suffer the consequences of there own instincts. Complete seperation from the face of the Lord.

Dont look at me. Athiests are usually the ones saying Hitler was christian.

What i believe is Gods word. What you believe is your own ideas mixed with Gods word.This message has been edited by almeyda, 10-12-2004 02:43 AM

Im just saying, that you cant go around saying rape is bad and if you rape you wont get into heaven, but if you were sexually immoral then its ok, if you were buddhist but always helped your fellow man then God will let you in. Its nit picking like that that made me say that, because if that were the case then every christian would have its choice as to whats bad and whats worthy of God. When in reality all we have to do is read his word to find the answer as to that only those who repented, lived in righteousness and were in Christ will be saved. I know the answer. Do you?