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Author Topic:   Parables 101
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 5 of 229 (148656)
10-09-2004 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
10-09-2004 3:08 AM


Unfortunately, trying to understand a first century parable in a 21st century mindframe doesn't always present the right picture. I never understood it until I understood the Jewish setting for the story.
Also remember that Jesus was teaching a religious lesson to those who already believed in the religion itself and its principles. In this one the Jewish principle of helping those less fortunate than yourself and not seeking a reward for yourself when serving God.
This parable is placed after the rich man asked how to get eternal life and said he already followed the commandments. Jesus told him to sell all and give it to the poor. The man didn't want to part with his riches. The disciples then asked what was in it for them since they had given up all to follow him.
In that age, workers were paid daily. So the day laborer was someone who waited around to be hired. Without work their families would probably go hungry. A denarius was just enough to provide food for a laborer and his family, but probably not for very long.
The first group knew what their pay was and agreed. The later workers did not know what their pay was, but were willing to work anyway. So when the landowner pays the workers, he gives the beginning bunch what was agreed and chooses to give the later ones what is fair. Some would argue that it isn't fair for one man to have a lot of money and another to have none. The landowner probably gave the later groups the same amount so their families wouldn't go hungry. He gave them more because he wanted to.
Although our farm was small, my father used to do the same thing during haying season when we had the money. He looked for those who were out of work and paid a good wage for the day. It was his way of helping those in need who wouldn't take charity.
Now remember the beginning of the parable is: The kingdom of heaven is like a landowner...
Jesus was comparing the generosity of the landowner to God who gives just rewards.
The workers in the story show how followers should serve God out of love rather than guarantee of receiving a reward.
This parable doesn't work as a corporate analogy as you were attempting.

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Phat, posted 10-09-2004 3:08 AM Phat has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 9 of 229 (148690)
10-09-2004 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Phat
10-09-2004 2:29 PM


Same Parable
What is labeled in the NT as "The Rich Young Man" is not a parable but a conversation which takes place before the parable of "The Fair Employer." (The NIV calls it "The Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard")
The conversation with the Rich Young Man and the questions by the disciples of Jesus are what initiated the vineyard parable. As I said it was a religious teaching.
The argument you are having with Crashfrog is unreasonable, mainly because it's not the point of the parable, and because the workforce today functions differently.
You yourself said that your new employer was not going to give you the higher pay until you found the prior experience ruling. The employer did not give you more pay because he thought it was fair or out of the goodness of his heart. He didn't give you more money just because you were destitute. He didn't have an option.
Like I said, you can't apply the parable to a corporate situation of today.
Crashfrog is right, pay should be equal according to the work done.
Off to a wedding, back later!

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Phat, posted 10-09-2004 2:29 PM Phat has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 14 of 229 (148841)
10-10-2004 7:47 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Phat
10-09-2004 7:13 PM


Fair Employer
Since you persist on this path, you would probably understand it better if you kept it in the agrarian situation presented.
They are only hired for a day (the latter ones part of a day).
To keep it simple let's say this landowner has 50 rows of grapevines each roughly half a mile long.
Let's say the first group had 10 men in it. Their task for the day is to pick the grapes, put them in boxes (or whatever they used back then) and then get those boxes to a common area. (barn, winery, etc.) So when these gentlemen were hired, there were 50 rows worth of grapes to be harvested and hauled. Each would have to harvest 5 rows by the end of the day.
The owner then goes out at various times and brings in more workers. Let's say 5 workers each time. In doing this the owner has reduced the total amount of work the original group would need to accomplish during the day. So with the addition of workers, the original group may not have to haul the harvest, but just pick etc.
Notice they are only grumbling about the men hired last, who only worked one hour, not the others hired during the day.
Since the workload of the original group was lessened by the addition of workers, they could possibly have lost money if they renegotiated their agreement.
But as I said earlier the point is the generosity of the landowner to the those hired last.

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Phat, posted 10-09-2004 7:13 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Phat, posted 10-10-2004 10:55 AM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 16 of 229 (148882)
10-10-2004 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Phat
10-10-2004 10:55 AM


Re: Fair Employer
By making the performers in this scenerio represent specific people or groups, you are making it an allegory.
Jesus was teaching his disciples a specific religious lesson concerning their conversation at that time and place.
By Christian tradition the Jews had not rejected God yet, no Christian church existed yet, and the Gentiles had not jumped on the bandwagon yet.
Parables: simple stories that teach. These stories are not written in stone. They can be changed to suit the audience or situation.
So if you wish to use this parable and make it allegorical to suit a Chrisitan teaching, so be it, but don't attribute the new teaching to Jesus. Understand the parable as Jesus presented it to his disciples in the scenerio given.
IMPO, the "last is first and first is last" portion is from a teaching after the resurrection. The "last" being the Gentiles and the "first" being the Jews. Which shows this has already been adjusted for a new teaching. The addition doesn't really make sense in the parable. A wise owner would have paid the first group first so as not to cause friction with the last group.
Even Jesus taught not to make a show of your generosity.

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Phat, posted 10-10-2004 10:55 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Rrhain, posted 10-11-2004 3:09 AM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 19 of 229 (149080)
10-11-2004 7:33 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Rrhain
10-11-2004 3:09 AM


Re: Fair Employer
Exactly!

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Rrhain, posted 10-11-2004 3:09 AM Rrhain has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 21 of 229 (149125)
10-11-2004 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Phat
10-09-2004 6:17 PM


Re: Next Parable: The Shrewd Manager
IMPO, this parable is poorly constructed.
The point(s) of this parable should be:
1. Whoever can be trusted with very little can also be trusted with much... etc. Luke16:10-12
2. No servant can serve two masters.....Luke 16:13
The story does make a lame attempt at the first point, which given the final comment about the Pharisees,
The Pharisees, who loved money, heard all this and were sneering at Jesus. He said to them, "You are the ones who justify yourselves in the eyes of men, but God knows your hearts. What is highly valued among men is detestable in God's sight. Luke 16:14-15
is probably what the original parable was trying to convey.
The second point doesn't really come through.
The incident that started the string of stories before this parable was the comment by the Pharisees that "This man welcomes sinners and eats with them." This led to the stories of lost and found, but doesn't provide a relevant lead in to this parable.
During the telling of these stories there seems to be a crowd of people. (Luke 14:25) But the opening line of Luke 16 would indicate only his disciples are hearing this particular story.
Jesus told his disciples: Luke 16
So, were the Pharisees eavesdropping?
This next passage alludes to giving away money or possessions, but not necessarily to the needy.
I tell you, use worldly wealth to gain friends for yourselves, so that when it is gone, you will be welcomed into eternal dwellings. Luke 16:9
Why the master praised the manager's shrewdness is problematic even for Bible scholars. There just isn't enough information given to discern the meaning even within its own timeframe.
Personally, this parable reminds me of someone who remembers the punchline of a joke, but doesn't deliver the body of the joke correctly.

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Phat, posted 10-09-2004 6:17 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Phat, posted 10-11-2004 2:25 PM purpledawn has replied
 Message 25 by Rrhain, posted 10-16-2004 6:48 AM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 24 of 229 (149201)
10-11-2004 8:45 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Phat
10-11-2004 2:25 PM


Re: Next Parable: The Shrewd Manager
All you've done is recap the story.
Without turning it into an allegory, what was Jesus trying to teach his disciples on that day?

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Phat, posted 10-11-2004 2:25 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Phat, posted 10-21-2004 8:49 AM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 26 of 229 (150270)
10-16-2004 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Rrhain
10-16-2004 6:48 AM


Re: Next Parable: The Shrewd Manager
quote:
It makes a bit of sense to me if you are of the opinion that the world is about to end:
I never looked at it from that point of view. That actually would make more sense than the explanations given in commentaries or bible studies I've attended. Thank you for the insight.
In my NIV Study Bible the explanation of Luke 16:9 is: (italics theirs)
use worldly wealth. God's people should be alert to make use of what God has given them. to gain friends. By helping those in need, who in the future will show their gratitude when they welcome their benefactors into heaven ("eternal dwellings"). In this way worldly wealth may be wisely used to gain eternal benefit.
Unfortunately no matter how the Christians dance around it, Luke 16:9 supports "works" to get to heaven regardless of sincerity or the motivation behind the action.
In a doomsday frame of mind it shouts "Buy your way into heaven before it's too late!"
Which would also support the view given in Luke 18:18 concerning the rich ruler that Jesus told to sell everying and give it to the poor and he would have treasure in heaven.
I love it when the light bulb comes on!

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Rrhain, posted 10-16-2004 6:48 AM Rrhain has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 28 of 229 (152001)
10-22-2004 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Phat
10-21-2004 8:49 AM


Re: Next Parable: The Shrewd Manager
Nice explanation to teach today's Christian lesson.
Excerpt from The Unjust Steward.
This is significant. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of Wisdom. God can condemn you to eternal damnation. It is wise to seek a way out of that. In fact, the judgment of damnation is so terrible, that praise is offered to the one who, in desperation, seeks a way out of it.
Unfortunately I don't believe the Jews believed in eternal damnation.
To get to this conclusion though, the author adds to the parable to make it work.
The steward was no doubt making extras "under the table," but these amounts were not reflected in the signed bills.
The master was a man of noble character respected in the community who cared enough about his own wealth to fire a wasteful manager, and this is the key to understanding this parable.
We don't know this.
In verse 9 Jesus is not praising the dishonesty, but the ability of the steward to recognize the generosity of his master, see what was coming, and use what he had at the time to obtain something far greater: self preservation.
What generosity? It didn't say the master gave him his job back.
as they rejoice in, what they think is, the generosity of the landowner.
How does this help the steward after he is fired if they think the generosity is from the landowner and not the steward?
What, then, does the parable typify?
1. God (the master) is a God of judgment and mercy.
2. Because of his evil, man (the steward) is caught in the crisis of the coming of the kingdom.
3. Excuses will avail the steward nothing.
4. Man's only option is to entrust everything to the unfailing mercy of his generous master who, he can be confident, will accept to pay the price for man's salvation.
You would need to show me that the Jewish people and/or Pharisees expected the messiah to die for their salvation for me to believe that this is what Jesus was trying to teach at that time.

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Phat, posted 10-21-2004 8:49 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Phat, posted 10-22-2004 4:15 PM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 32 of 229 (152456)
10-23-2004 10:22 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Phat
10-22-2004 4:15 PM


Re: Next Parable: The Shrewd Manager
quote:
First of all, Jesus is addressing His disciples.
Don't forget that the Pharisees also heard and Jesus supposedly said to them:
"You are the ones who justify yourselves in the eyes of men, but God knows your hearts. What is highly valued among men is detestable in God's sight.
So why is it bad for the Pharisees to use worldly wealth to gain friends, but not the disciples?
quote:
He has addressed them concerning the last days,(Matthew 24)
But in the book of Luke, Jesus doesn’t address the last days until Luke 21. So in this book at that moment in time, he probably hadn't taught them about the last days.
The article you linked to brings out eternal damnation, but the gospels don't. So it wouldn't be a lesson taught at the specific time.
quote:
As to the reasoning of the unjust steward, he is maintaining hookups with the clients of his Manager/Landowner so as to perhaps have places to sleep at night? Or perhaps future employment of some sort.
I understand what the steward is doing, but what religious or moral lesson of that time does it teach?
1. Use worldly wealth to gain friends...welcomed into eternal dwellings.
2. Whoever can be trusted with very little can be trusted with much...
3. No servant can serve two masters...
4. What is highly valued among men is detestable to God's sight.
The parable supports the first one, but, as I've said before, that sounds like works can get you into heaven.

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Phat, posted 10-22-2004 4:15 PM Phat has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 35 of 229 (153066)
10-26-2004 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by tsig
10-09-2004 7:31 PM


Workers in the Vineyard (Fair Employer)
quote:
The parable has nothing to do with money. It says that no matter when you enter the kingdom on heaven you will get the same reward.
I agree that the parable has nothing to do with money, but it also doesn't deal with when one gets to heaven.
Jesus preached that the "Kingdom of God" was at hand (imminent).
From "The Way of God" by Moshe Chaim Luzzatto
The true time and place of reward will therefore be after the resurrection in this renewed world."
As I understand it, the Jews in the time of Jesus believed that the whole world and its occupants must die to purify it from the sin of Adam. Unfortunately they didn't believe that all people would be equal in this time of reward. The works accomplished before the renewal would determine their reward after the renewal.
Remember the conversation just before the parable.
Matthew 19:27-29
Peter anwered him, "We have left everything to follow you! What then will there be for us?"
Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things...And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or chldren or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life."
Jesus uses this parable to teach his disciples that God would be generous at the time of renewal and reward equally regardless of the works accomplished before the renewal. With this parable he also teaches them that those who serve God should do so out of love rather than for the guarantee of a reward.

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by tsig, posted 10-09-2004 7:31 PM tsig has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 37 of 229 (153367)
10-27-2004 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by PecosGeorge
10-26-2004 1:35 PM


God's Behavior
quote:
Too many are inclined to project human behavior on God.
What other type of behavior would be available to give people an understanding of God?

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by PecosGeorge, posted 10-26-2004 1:35 PM PecosGeorge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by PecosGeorge, posted 10-27-2004 1:49 PM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 42 of 229 (153412)
10-27-2004 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by PecosGeorge
10-27-2004 1:49 PM


Re: God's Behavior
Behavior: 1. the way a person behaves or acts; conduct
quote:
Our ways are not God’s ways. We know his acts, but not his ways.
Wasn't God talking to a specific group in Isaiah as opposed to the entire human race?
Deuteronomy 8:6
"Therefore, you shall keep the commandments of the LORD your God, to walk in His ways and to fear Him.
There are several verses telling us to walk in His ways by following his commandments. Therefore we do know his ways.
What acts of God do not relate to human behavior?

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by PecosGeorge, posted 10-27-2004 1:49 PM PecosGeorge has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 43 of 229 (153517)
10-27-2004 8:59 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Phat
10-27-2004 11:50 AM


Re: Next Parable: The Rich Young Ruler
This is a conversation, not a parable.
quote:
go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven.
"Works" will get him a place in the "world to come."

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Phat, posted 10-27-2004 11:50 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Phat, posted 10-28-2004 5:52 AM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 46 of 229 (153600)
10-28-2004 7:09 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by Phat
10-28-2004 5:52 AM


Re: Next Parable: The Rich Young Ruler
quote:
His membership was bought by Grace...not works.
The man asked "What good thing must I do to get eternal life?
Jesus gave him the list of things to do.
Then he added if the man wanted to be perfect to sell all and he would have treasures in heaven.
These are all actions, works, things that can be done.
Jesus hadn't been crucified yet, so the supposed debt had not been paid yet. Nothing was bought.

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Phat, posted 10-28-2004 5:52 AM Phat has not replied

  
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