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Author | Topic: Creationist Baumgardner: one of the top mainstream mantle/plate tectonics simulators! | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Tranquility Base Inactive Member |
Edge
Those points raised on talk.origins are clearly very antgonistic and seem to have the same over simplification bias. I'm not a geophysicist. Has Baumgardner ever rebutted?
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Tranquility Base Inactive Member |
R. Planet True - but I wouldn't be suprprised if he has tenure - my bread and butter depends on my getting the next grant currently!
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Tranquility Base Inactive Member |
wj
I plan to study Joe's details and how exreme and unrealistic these viscosities are. Whatever the case Baumgardner is a mainstream geologists of excellent repute. Maybe Baumgardner is preperared to push his model to an extreme becasue he suspects that something extreme generated this effect (eg accelerated decay). I can guarentee that he will not require multiple 'miracles'. From my mainstream readings I am aware that nobody can model the detials of plate tectonics very well and that Baumgardner is at the top of the pack of those who play this game. In his spare time he has prodded his work in a creationists direction and I certainly do not expect it to be flawless.
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edge Member (Idle past 1726 days) Posts: 4696 From: Colorado, USA Joined: |
quote: Actually, he's not a geologist.
quote: No. The only thing driving Baumgardner on this is his interpretation of the bible.
quote: Oh, no, it does. You cannot get the viscosities and heat flows without sterilizing the earth. That would include the ark.
quote: Wow, I hope you never berate us for making assumptions. This is exactly what he has done and not very realistic ones at that.
quote: My understanding is that this work is entirely outside his professional efforts. The subduction zones he has modeled look nothing like subduction zones that we can actually see.
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edge Member (Idle past 1726 days) Posts: 4696 From: Colorado, USA Joined: |
quote: But AIG is okay, eh? Not sure about Baumgardner's rebuttal. But it probably goes something like this, "The bible says so, and that's all I need!"
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edge Member (Idle past 1726 days) Posts: 4696 From: Colorado, USA Joined: |
quote: Let's see, have you explained yet how you fit all of that volcanism and tectonism into 2000 years, yet? It would seem to me that this would be a good time to do that. This should be an easy answer if you are in the right ballpark.
quote: It is your model. You need to make the adjustments. Besides, you don't have decades.
quote: Right, I'm the one that brings up details that you cannot explain, but I'm the one being simplistic.
quote: WEll, then, give us a time frame. The way I see it, you have from the flood to about 2000 years ago, max.
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wj Inactive Member |
Bump
So, TB, after your study of Joe's details, how many miracles has Baumgardner's model been reduced to?
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Tranquility Base Inactive Member |
I haven't got into the maths yet wj.
I personally suspect that the miracle will be an impulse of radioheating. Sure, God also prepared Noah for that mission on the ark. It was the world's most amazing adventure ever. I love the Apollo program but Noah was bigger even though earth bound.
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blitz77 Inactive Member |
quote: quote: If hes not a geologist, is he a geophysicist then? [This message has been edited by blitz77, 08-05-2002]
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Joe Meert Member (Idle past 5700 days) Posts: 913 From: Gainesville Joined: |
quote: JM: He is a mantle modeler. He is out of the closet and professes young earth creationism at meetings such as AGU whilst hypocritically sponsoring old earth posters in another room. Baumgardner's model is good, but it is not the best there is. As with all computer models, they will give answers, but GIGO. Baumgardner's model can be tweaked to show there is no possibility for plate tectonics as well. The key is to match observations with the models. His Noachian model is not supported by any observational data.In fact, the observations are unambiguously opposed to his model. By the way TB, Baumgardner, while a hypocrite, publicly announces his christianity and ye-stance unlike many other closet hypocrites who pretend to be something else for a buck or two. Cheers Joe Meert [This message has been edited by Joe Meert, 08-05-2002]
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edge Member (Idle past 1726 days) Posts: 4696 From: Colorado, USA Joined: |
quote: Well, I don't see 'Geology' anywhwere in those degrees so there isn't even a question of IF he's a geologist. As to the geophysicist part of the question, I suppose so. However, keep in mind that there are two types of geophysicist: those that understand geology and those that don't. Baumgardner, I assure you, is one of the latter.
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blitz77 Inactive Member |
quote: I thought mantle convection, dynamics and plate motion goes under the domain of geophysics. Which he most definitely understands, Baumgardner has published articles on mantle convection and dynamics, plate motion, geodynamic earth models since 1982, which is 20 years ago in collaboration with many other famous geophysicists. So he has plenty of experience in this field. That means that he should easily qualify as a person who would know a lot about this topic.
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Joe Meert Member (Idle past 5700 days) Posts: 913 From: Gainesville Joined: |
quote: JM: Actually, his publication record is rather meagre for someone with 20+ years of experience in the field. He has one first author book and 8 co-authored papers. Having said that, let's give credit where credit is due. He developed the Terra model and it is a useful (though not the best) code for mantle dynamics. He is most definitely a geophysicist though he is NOT a geologist. He has good knowledge of mantle dynamics and kinematics. He also knows quite well that computer models such as his will give answers dependent on the input. One can make the mantle do just about anything if one plays with the parameters. So this complex computer algorithm results in rapid drift. One only has to assume unrealistic models for mantle viscosity to get this result, but the result has some very simple consequences. One of them is the amount of heat released during this 'collapse' and the second is the depth profile of the oceanic crust. I've dealt with the first one at THE DEPTHS OF THE OCEANS . Others have discussed the heat problem. The simple answer is that garbage into Terra results in a global flood (garbage out).
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Joe Meert Member (Idle past 5700 days) Posts: 913 From: Gainesville Joined: |
I should add that Baumgardner has a number of abstracts published as well, but these are not considered as peer-reviewed. Note that with his publication record, it is unlikely that Baumgardner would have received tenure at most major universities in the US.
Cheers Joe Meert
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Tranquility Base Inactive Member |
^ Yes Baumgardner hasn't played the academic game as you and I are, true. But there is a lot of good long-term work that goes on at these institutes where the publicaiton records are frequently not what we would call stunning. A lot of these places do on-going development and operational work to the detriment of their publication records. Becasue they are not caught up in the game they do not necesarily send of a manuscript everytime they put 2 and 2 together like we do.
[This message has been edited by Tranquility Base, 08-07-2002]
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