Who can be saved? A Christian perspective

Well, that's fine since the BCP is not Biblical. It's the Book of Common Prayer. But before you totally dismiss it, it might be a good idea to learn something about it.If you disagree with me, no problem. Why don't you outline what YOU believe and why you believe it is true?This is a discussion, eveyone is welcome to express their pont of view.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Actually, it is a continuation of the message that IMHO, has been distorted by many of the fundamentalist and literalist sects.Carry on one verse more. Add verse 21 as well and you get a fuller picture. The gift of salvation was freely given, given to all, given to saint and sinner, believer and non-believer. But many reject the gift, not by their professions, not by denying the existence of GOD or Jesus, but by not living up to their potential, by not Loving GOD and loving others as they love themselves.I think that the real issue is the part about loving GOD.Many Christians believe that loving GOD means that you have to acknowledge GOD, that when it says that the only way is through Jesus that it means professing your belief or saying certain things.I don't believe that is the message at all. Instead, the passage in John, those in Matthew and the life of Jesus itself seems to be lessons in behavior. GOD is not concerned by what you say. All the professions in the world will not offset behavior. If you Love GOD, then do as in Matthew 25.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I don't think that's an issue.There are many gifts that simply don't have to be acknowledged or even known. Think about the old tale of the wealthy man that pays a young man's way to college anonymously.GOD gave the gift of salvation freely. If someone never knows about it, yet still lives a good life, they will find out about it when they die. It may come, in fact I believe it WILL come, as a complete surprise. I can't wait to see the astonishment on the faces of many an atheist when they discover not only were they wrong, GOD has prepared a place for them at the barbeque. It'll be better'n any surprise party ever.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

But Mike, Kermee's question is valid, and one theology has been struggling with since the beginning. Don't you think one of my first questions to ask GOD will be just that? We would all like to know why there is excessive suffering.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Kermee, IIRC correctly I said you will be astonished. Not pleased, not happy, but astonished. Was that so incorrect? Will you not be astonished to find out that there is a GOD and afterlife?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

if you please?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

AlmeydaAll I can say is "Are you totally incapable of reading?"Matthew 25 is one of the clearest statements in the whole Bible. Jesus is not making some symbolic speach that does not mean what it says. It means exactly what it says.YOU can interpret differently, but you have to at least acknowledge that is what you are doing.IMHO, what you are doing is exclusion. You are saying, "We have this little club and we're something special. No one that doesn't know the password and have the secret decoder ring can join."I do not think that is the case. I believe that GOD is inclusion not exclusion. Matthew 25 is the directions on how to follow the Great Commandment. It tells you how to love GOD and how to love your fellow man. It clearly says that how you treat others is also how you treat GOD.The big point is that it says not helping others, simply because they need it, for no other reason than that they need your help, is an affront to GOD.As I expected, you cannot show where belief, sin or professing faith appear in Matthew 25. And that's for a reason, it just is not there.But as I have said before, please feel free to explain salvation as you understand it.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Well, you covered a lot of ground so this will be a longer response than I like. Please bare with me. That, to me, means just what it says. The vast majority of folk will never really understand the way and so will fail at it. They will be like the goats, surprised that they did not do as GOD wished, surprised to find they are being damned. I imagine those who were really bad, who committed murder or rape as an example, may have a pretty hard time being saved. At a minimum, they will have some big time explaining to do.Those who weren't in a religion will likely have a far easier time getting in than any Christian. Afterall, as it says throughout the New Testament, the Christians will be held to stricter standards than those who have not become Christians.Look at Matthew 25 again. Who were the goats? They were close friends, followers of Jesus, Christians or proto-christians, people that believed in him, worshipped him, followed him, and let him down. They did not love others as they loved themselves. They would have done anything for Jesus, but never understood that you cannot do something for GOD, you are incapable of doing anything for GOD. You can only do things for your fellow man.The goats will be Christians. They will be good, GOD-fearing, church going, praying machine Christians. They will be folk like Gene Scott, Jerry Falwell, Oral Roberts, Jimmy Swaggart, Jim Bakker, Pat Robertson, Bob Larson, Billy Sunday, Hal Lindsey, Dr. Dino, John Morris, Walt Brown and the like. It will be chest thumping, brow beating, Christians that are bigots, that support the Defence of Marriage act, that do not just do what GOD asked folk to do, love others. He didn't say love Christians, he didn't say profess GOD, he said "Just do it".Let's examine some of your quotes. Let's start with the first one, "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord shall enter the into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doeth the will of my father which is in heaven"That's pretty clear. It says that those who profess belief, who say Lord, Lord, who are christians, may not get in. Of those, of the christians who show up, it will depend on what they did during their lives. If they followed the two Great Commandments, if they did the will of the Father, then they're in. And doing the will of the Father is doing unto others as you would have others do unto you.Look at the next quote you provided."Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?And then I will profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity"Again, he is talking to his followers, to Christians. These are not just any Christians, but ones that prophesied in his name, cast out devils and have done many wonderful works. Sounds like your typical televangelist, doesn't it. Sounds like someone who founded a Christian College, who has a 80,000 volume library of Christian books, who puts out videos and has his own tv show, doesn't it?And GOD's response is "Not here brother. Get on your way!" Not necessarily. But when you feed a Buddhist, take him into your home, get to know and love him, listen to what he can teach you, you are Loving GOD. They are, among others, Christians that never understood what GOD's message was. They are Christians who believed they could get by without doing what GOD asked us to do, Love GOD and to love others as we love ourselves.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

That's a good subject for another thread because I think that a very good case can be made that that is also a poor interpretation.In addition, there is absolutely no indication in Matthew 25 that any less than all of the world is brought in for judgement. Jesus says, "And before him shall be gathered all nations:". All Nations.There is no indication that some were cleared out beforehand. In addition, look at how the goats are described. When he tells them to depart, they respond "44: Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?""Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?"That is not the response of a non-follower. That is the response of a Christian, one who at the least considered himself to be a follower of Christ.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Like I said, start a topic on Revelation because many would say that Revelations is ancient history

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

We can give it a try there.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Well, I think you've done a pretty good job of outlining what you believe.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

No, not really.Hitler and his senior staff, based on their own writings, were Christians and believed that they were acting based on Biblical teachings.Throughout history there have been some very, very bad Christians.But to try to keep this somewhat on topic, the Nazis, particularly those who made decisions that lead to so much suffering as opposed to the lower level party member, would be very good examples of Christians that would be unlikely to be saved.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Was Torquemada a Christian?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

But let's not get too far into that here, please.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion