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Author Topic:   Who can be saved? A Christian perspective
jar
Member
Posts: 31178
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 121 of 460 (149104)
10-11-2004 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 120 by Brian
10-11-2004 11:04 AM


Re: Oxymoron Alert
No, not really.

Hitler and his senior staff, based on their own writings, were Christians and believed that they were acting based on Biblical teachings.

Throughout history there have been some very, very bad Christians.

But to try to keep this somewhat on topic, the Nazis, particularly those who made decisions that lead to so much suffering as opposed to the lower level party member, would be very good examples of Christians that would be unlikely to be saved.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by Brian, posted 10-11-2004 11:04 AM Brian has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by Brian, posted 10-11-2004 11:22 AM jar has responded

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 3187 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 122 of 460 (149107)
10-11-2004 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by jar
10-11-2004 11:11 AM


Re: Oxymoron Alert
But doesn't the fact that Christians are supposed to treat everyone as equal actually mean that these people were not Christians?

I would imagine that anyone who believed in their heart that Jesus conquered death at the resurrection would be incapable of mistreating others, so maybe they were not truly Christian?

Not everyone who calls me LORD will enter into heaven, surely you have to walk the walk to be a Christian?

Throughout history there have been some very, very bad Christians.

Shouldn't that be 'throughout history there have been some very very bad people who thought they were Christians'?

I really cannot see how 'Nazi' and 'Christian' can go together. Unless the Nazi believed that they were Christians.

Brian.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by jar, posted 10-11-2004 11:11 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by jar, posted 10-11-2004 11:26 AM Brian has responded
 Message 125 by Lammy, posted 10-11-2004 11:31 AM Brian has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 31178
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 123 of 460 (149108)
10-11-2004 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by Brian
10-11-2004 11:22 AM


Re: Oxymoron Alert
Was Torquemada a Christian?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Brian, posted 10-11-2004 11:22 AM Brian has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by Brian, posted 10-11-2004 11:29 AM jar has not yet responded

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 3187 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 124 of 460 (149110)
10-11-2004 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by jar
10-11-2004 11:26 AM


Re: Oxymoron Alert
Evidently not.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by jar, posted 10-11-2004 11:26 AM jar has not yet responded

    
Lammy
Member
Posts: 3611
From: Chicago
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 125 of 460 (149111)
10-11-2004 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by Brian
10-11-2004 11:22 AM


Re: Oxymoron Alert
Many people, including myself, would call what you just said the no true scottsman fallacy. You've created a definition of a christian that excludes just about everyone that you personally don't think worthy of being called christian.

Based on what you just said, buzsaw, whatever, riverrat, and a whole bunch of other homophobes on here aren't really christians because they want to take away people's rights, including my own, because they are homosexuals. I'd immagine that buz and his kind would disagree that hating homosexuals is the same thing as hating jews, but you get the idea.

If you want to go down the path of "he's not a christian because..." you will encounter a lot of hypocritical statements by many people.

It's not jar who you should be talking about the topic with. It should be buzsaw, whatever, riverrat, and other people like them that you should be debating with about what a christian really is.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Brian, posted 10-11-2004 11:22 AM Brian has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by jar, posted 10-11-2004 11:45 AM Lammy has not yet responded
 Message 127 by Brian, posted 10-11-2004 11:47 AM Lammy has not yet responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 31178
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 126 of 460 (149117)
10-11-2004 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by Lammy
10-11-2004 11:31 AM


Re: Oxymoron Alert
But let's not get too far into that here, please.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Lammy, posted 10-11-2004 11:31 AM Lammy has not yet responded

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 3187 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 127 of 460 (149118)
10-11-2004 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by Lammy
10-11-2004 11:31 AM


Re: Oxymoron Alert
Hi Lam

I'd immagine that buz and his kind would disagree that hating homosexuals is the same thing as hating jews, but you get the idea.

I know what you are saying, but I don't consider Buzsaw, Whatever,RiverRat, Almeyda, Desdamona, Wise, and many others here to be Christian.

These people are not following the teachings of Jesus.

Jesus certainly never condemned homosexual's, but he did say to treat others as you would like to be treated. He did say that when you feed and clothe someone who is in need then you you feed and clothe him, he didn't make any exceptions.

If you want to go down the path of "he's not a christian because..." you will encounter a lot of hypocritical statements by many people.

There is nothing more hypocritical than someone who thinks they are a Christian. I have only met a handful of people that I think deserve the name, there are obviously many others, but I have only met a few, and I have met an awful lot of 'Christians'.

Personally, I think if someone is saved they behave in a Christ-like way, I do not see the people you mentioned acting like this.

But, the Bible makes up the rules for being a Christian, it also tells you what actions exclude you from being a Christian.

Brian.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Lammy, posted 10-11-2004 11:31 AM Lammy has not yet responded

    
Brian
Member (Idle past 3187 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 128 of 460 (149119)
10-11-2004 11:50 AM


Back on Topic
Back on topic then LOL, sorry Jar.

When you say 'saved' in the OP, what exactly do you mean, saved from what?

Brian.


Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by jar, posted 10-11-2004 11:55 AM Brian has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 31178
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 129 of 460 (149120)
10-11-2004 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by Brian
10-11-2004 11:50 AM


Re: Back on Topic
Actually, in the Biblical sense, damnation and hell and granted a life everafter. But I'd rather not get too deeply in this thread into greater definition of those two subjects. Perhaps we can get into what saved or damnation means infuture discussions.

For now, can we all simply accept that by saved I am simply refering to the common Christian conception without going into specific definitions of the terms? I do agree that they will be two interesting threads though.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Brian, posted 10-11-2004 11:50 AM Brian has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by Lammy, posted 10-11-2004 12:00 PM jar has responded
 Message 131 by Brian, posted 10-11-2004 12:03 PM jar has responded

  
Lammy
Member
Posts: 3611
From: Chicago
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 130 of 460 (149122)
10-11-2004 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by jar
10-11-2004 11:55 AM


Re: Back on Topic
I disagree.

Who can be saved? A Christian perspective

First of all, I think that we are completely on topic when we were discussing what a christian is. It's like saying "all Lamists go to heaven" without clearly define what a Lamist is.

Who can be saved? If we want to go your path and not go deep into the definitions of things, then I'd say that the answer depends on what one views as a "christian perspective". There are more than one christian perspective, and I don't think we are going off topic by trying to explore what the various christian perspectives are.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by jar, posted 10-11-2004 11:55 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by jar, posted 10-11-2004 2:41 PM Lammy has responded

    
Brian
Member (Idle past 3187 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 131 of 460 (149123)
10-11-2004 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by jar
10-11-2004 11:55 AM


Re: Back on Topic
One of the criteria you present for being saved is to 'Love God', can you tell me how an atheist or a Buddhist will ever fulfil this?

Brian.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by jar, posted 10-11-2004 11:55 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by jar, posted 10-11-2004 2:52 PM Brian has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 31178
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 132 of 460 (149135)
10-11-2004 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by Lammy
10-11-2004 12:00 PM


Re: Back on Topic
I have no problem when others present what they believe the Christian point of view or teachings related to salvation are. For example, Almeyda presented what he believes the critera will be. It's possible to descibe the conditions without defining Christian.

What I don't want to do is get into "What a true Christian is" or what the definitions of salvation or damnation are. The former simply degenterates into "Is Too!, Is Not!" while the latter two are meat enough for a thread on their own.

I hope more Christians will contribute what they believe the criteria is and why they support their beliefs.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by Lammy, posted 10-11-2004 12:00 PM Lammy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by Lammy, posted 10-11-2004 2:49 PM jar has not yet responded
 Message 196 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-18-2004 2:49 PM jar has responded

  
Lammy
Member
Posts: 3611
From: Chicago
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 133 of 460 (149138)
10-11-2004 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by jar
10-11-2004 2:41 PM


Re: Back on Topic
This is my attitude before I openned my eyes.

It doesn't matter what you have done, what you will done, what you have believed, or what you will believe. As long as you believe there is a god and that god is the judeo-christian god, you are saved. I used to believe that you can be a mass murderer and still go to heaven simply because that's the way it is.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by jar, posted 10-11-2004 2:41 PM jar has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by riVeRraT, posted 01-10-2005 12:57 AM Lammy has not yet responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 31178
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 134 of 460 (149140)
10-11-2004 2:52 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by Brian
10-11-2004 12:03 PM


Re: Back on Topic
Brian, I initiall lay out my thoughts related to that question in Message 7 and Message 10.

Later there is a series of posts

with Almeyda beginning at Message 19,

with Phatboy beginning at Message 31 and

with Mike-the-wiz beginning at Message 43.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by Brian, posted 10-11-2004 12:03 PM Brian has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by Brian, posted 10-11-2004 3:42 PM jar has responded

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 3187 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 135 of 460 (149151)
10-11-2004 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by jar
10-11-2004 2:52 PM


Re: Back on Topic
Thanks for the links Jar.

I think your own interpretation is excellent, even although I don't agree with it LOL.

To me it seems that you are thinking along the lines that if you are a good person, help others, don't go out your way to hurt anyone, then you will be saved.

Regarding the atheist who acts like this, he/she will be loving (pleasing) God by their actions even although God never enters their thoughts when they are doing the good deeds.

It is a nice faith Jar, it is certainly more reasonable than mainstream Christianity and it would be great if it were True.

Cheers.

Brian.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by jar, posted 10-11-2004 2:52 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by jar, posted 10-11-2004 5:36 PM Brian has responded

    
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