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Author Topic:   Who can be saved? A Christian perspective
jar
Member
Posts: 31178
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 136 of 460 (149167)
10-11-2004 5:36 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by Brian
10-11-2004 3:42 PM


Re: Back on Topic
To me it seems that you are thinking along the lines that if you are a good person, help others, don't go out your way to hurt anyone, then you will be saved.

Not exactly.

First, I am a Christian. That means that I believe that Jesus lived, preached, was crucified, died, was buried, was resurected on the third day and rose into heaven.

Second, I believe that the purpose of all of the was for the forgiveness of sins.

So there are two givens, that Christ lived and died and that he died that sins might be forgiven.

So the first question I'd ask you, using the two beliefs as I have laid them out, would have to be, "Who did Christ die for?"


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by Brian, posted 10-11-2004 3:42 PM Brian has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by Brian, posted 10-12-2004 4:15 AM jar has responded

  
almeyda
Inactive Member


Message 137 of 460 (149385)
10-12-2004 3:38 AM
Reply to: Message 120 by Brian
10-11-2004 11:04 AM


Re: Oxymoron Alert
Dont look at me. Athiests are usually the ones saying Hitler was christian.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by Brian, posted 10-11-2004 11:04 AM Brian has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by Brian, posted 10-12-2004 4:16 AM almeyda has responded

  
almeyda
Inactive Member


Message 138 of 460 (149386)
10-12-2004 3:41 AM
Reply to: Message 119 by jar
10-11-2004 10:06 AM


What i believe is Gods word. What you believe is your own ideas mixed with Gods word.

This message has been edited by almeyda, 10-12-2004 02:43 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by jar, posted 10-11-2004 10:06 AM jar has not yet responded

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 3187 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 139 of 460 (149389)
10-12-2004 4:15 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by jar
10-11-2004 5:36 PM


Re: Back on Topic
Mankind.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by jar, posted 10-11-2004 5:36 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by jar, posted 10-12-2004 8:08 AM Brian has responded

    
Brian
Member (Idle past 3187 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 140 of 460 (149390)
10-12-2004 4:16 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by almeyda
10-12-2004 3:38 AM


Re: Oxymoron Alert
You are an atheist now are you?

It was you that made the statement, so how can you harmonise what a Nazi believes with what Jesus taught?

Cheers.

Brian.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by almeyda, posted 10-12-2004 3:38 AM almeyda has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by almeyda, posted 10-12-2004 7:31 AM Brian has not yet responded

    
almeyda
Inactive Member


Message 141 of 460 (149404)
10-12-2004 7:31 AM
Reply to: Message 140 by Brian
10-12-2004 4:16 AM


Re: Oxymoron Alert
Im just saying, that you cant go around saying rape is bad and if you rape you wont get into heaven, but if you were sexually immoral then its ok, if you were buddhist but always helped your fellow man then God will let you in. Its nit picking like that that made me say that, because if that were the case then every christian would have its choice as to whats bad and whats worthy of God. When in reality all we have to do is read his word to find the answer as to that only those who repented, lived in righteousness and were in Christ will be saved. I know the answer. Do you?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by Brian, posted 10-12-2004 4:16 AM Brian has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31178
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 142 of 460 (149405)
10-12-2004 8:08 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by Brian
10-12-2004 4:15 AM


Re: Back on Topic
Okay. I happen to agree and that is a key believe of all of the Creedal Christian Churches.

Christ died for all mankind, that includes believers as well as non-believers. The gift is freely given and unconditional.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Brian, posted 10-12-2004 4:15 AM Brian has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by Brian, posted 10-12-2004 8:56 AM jar has responded

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 3187 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 143 of 460 (149409)
10-12-2004 8:56 AM
Reply to: Message 142 by jar
10-12-2004 8:08 AM


Re: Back on Topic
The gift is freely given and unconditional.

Except that the Bible provides the condition of having to believe in the ressurection.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

This looks very much like a condition to me.

You can get into heaven on the condition that you believe that Jesus died for your sins and believe that he conquered death at the resurrection.

I don't happen to believe that at all, and that is not only 'A' key belief of creedal christian churches, it is probably 'THE' key belief.

Jesus may well have loved all mankind whether they were a theif, murderer, whore, homosexual, or anything else, but he still places a condition on your entry to his kingdom. Only those that believe in his ressurection, truly believe it in their hearts will go into heaven. That's really what the sheep and the goats story is about, once you truly believe in your heart that Jesus is lord and saviour, it is only then that you feed him, clothe him, and visit him in prison.

Anyway, what if you didnt want to go to heaven, but you were a good and kind person, do you have a choice?

Cheers.

Brian.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by jar, posted 10-12-2004 8:08 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by jar, posted 10-12-2004 9:32 AM Brian has responded
 Message 147 by 1.61803, posted 10-12-2004 4:34 PM Brian has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 31178
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 144 of 460 (149414)
10-12-2004 9:32 AM
Reply to: Message 143 by Brian
10-12-2004 8:56 AM


Re: Back on Topic
John is an interesting book and beloved by conserrvative Christians. But in many ways it gives an entirely different picture than the other cannoniacal Gospels. If you look specificly at John 3, where that quote comes from, you can see what I'm talking about.

It begins:

John 3
1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

So one of the educated leaders of the church comes to Jesus and says that it looks like he is the real stuff and speaking from GOD.

Jesus then goes straight to denouncing the structure as it exists, and anouncing a new structure.

The particular line you are quoting is John 3:16. But too often it is taken out of context and both what comes before it and after it is neglected.

Look at:

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

and what follows:

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

In particular, look at 19:21. Here, the message returns once again to behaviour, to actions, rather than simply acknowledgement or belief. Again, it seems to me to be saying that actions speak louder than words. It's saying that what you do evidences your belief, not what you say.

I do not see John 3 and Matthew 25 as being in conflict. Instead, I believe they amplify each other.

Anyway, what if you didnt want to go to heaven, but you were a good and kind person, do you have a choice?

I cannot imagine a loving GOD that would force anyone to live eternally. What a hell that would be. Instead, I would imagine that the individual would be given enough information to make an informed decision and that GOD would grant the individual's wish.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Brian, posted 10-12-2004 8:56 AM Brian has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by dpardo, posted 10-12-2004 2:11 PM jar has responded
 Message 148 by Brian, posted 10-12-2004 4:35 PM jar has responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 398 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 145 of 460 (149434)
10-12-2004 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 120 by Brian
10-11-2004 11:04 AM


Re: Oxymoron Alert
A nazi christian

quote:
What on God's green Earth is that?

Isn't 'Nazi Christian' an oxymoron, a bit like 'Creation Science'?


No, it's not really an oxymoron, unfortunately.

Randall Terry is a Christian terrorist.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by Brian, posted 10-11-2004 11:04 AM Brian has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by mike the wiz, posted 10-16-2004 12:52 PM nator has responded

    
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 146 of 460 (149460)
10-12-2004 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by jar
10-12-2004 9:32 AM


Re: Back on Topic
Hi Jar,

You wrote:

I cannot imagine a loving GOD that would force anyone to live eternally. What a hell that would be. Instead, I would imagine that the individual would be given enough information to make an informed decision and that GOD would grant the individual's wish.

Can you please elaborate on this.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by jar, posted 10-12-2004 9:32 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by jar, posted 10-12-2004 6:46 PM dpardo has not yet responded

  
1.61803
Member
Posts: 2887
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 147 of 460 (149475)
10-12-2004 4:34 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by Brian
10-12-2004 8:56 AM


Re: Back on Topic
It is pretty simple Brian, your gonna burn in hell.

**please know this is said in jest.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Brian, posted 10-12-2004 8:56 AM Brian has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by Brian, posted 10-12-2004 4:39 PM 1.61803 has not yet responded

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 3187 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 148 of 460 (149476)
10-12-2004 4:35 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by jar
10-12-2004 9:32 AM


Re: Back on Topic
Hi Jar,

In particular, look at 19:21. Here, the message returns once again to behaviour, to actions, rather than simply acknowledgement or belief.

I see what you are getting at, but you cannot just ignore what comes before 19:21 as if it isn’t there.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

This is quite explicit; it is that Jesus came into the world to save it that at least puts you on the path to salvation. The text really does say if you do not believe in Jesus as saviour of the world then you are already condemned. Which is a bit of a problem for yours truly here LOL, my opinions of Jesus over the years have ranged from Saviour to conman, to revolutionary, to phantom, but I cannot see it going back to the Saviour stance again.

Again, it seems to me to be saying that actions speak louder than words. It's saying that what you do evidences your belief, not what you say.

Yes, but couldn’t it be that once you believe in your heart that Jesus is Lord and Saviour that you feel compelled to help your fellow man and that good actions, Christ-like actions, are a natural follow on from belief in the resurrection and salvation through Jesus Christ?

This is what I see, and once believed, in the New Testament. I am not saying you are incorrect and I fully respect your faith, and I am not trying to be intentionally irritating, just trying to understand your personal faith.

I do not see John 3 and Matthew 25 as being in conflict. Instead, I believe they amplify each other.

Yes indeed they do, actions speak louder than words. I don’t think they conflict at all, I think the sheep know in their hearts that Jesus is Saviour of the world and their actions reflect Christ’s qualities. But the goats ‘believe’ that he is saviour and that’s all they do about it. But if they truly believed they would be doing something to help their neighbour.

I cannot imagine a loving GOD that would force anyone to live eternally. What a hell that would be. Instead, I would imagine that the individual would be given enough information to make an informed decision and that GOD would grant the individual's wish.

You know this is quite similar to Pure Land Buddhism, where a being can go to a Pure Land (Heaven) and be helped to Enlightenment by the resident Bodhisattva, then once Enlightened you can make a variety of choices.

But, being able to choose to extinguish your life force seems to contradict the promise of Eternal Life.

I hope you have given up any ambition to become the next Pope!

However, I do like your flavour of Christianity a lot more than many denominations I have heard about, but I honestly find it difficult to square it with the New Testament, this doesn’t mean you are incorrect though.

Thanks for sharing your personal faith, it is very interesting.

Cheers.

Brian.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by jar, posted 10-12-2004 9:32 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by jar, posted 10-12-2004 6:54 PM Brian has not yet responded

    
Brian
Member (Idle past 3187 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 149 of 460 (149477)
10-12-2004 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by 1.61803
10-12-2004 4:34 PM


Re: Back on Topic
Hi

It is pretty simple Brian, your gonna burn in hell.

LOL, if you only knew how many Christians have told me that!!!!

Remember the guy that called me Son of Stan (sic) LOL!!

Ah well, at least it will be warm, and full of familiar faces.

Cheers.

Brian.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by 1.61803, posted 10-12-2004 4:34 PM 1.61803 has not yet responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 31178
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 150 of 460 (149495)
10-12-2004 6:46 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by dpardo
10-12-2004 2:11 PM


Re: Back on Topic
Not here but if we ever get a thread on what Heaven will be like, or not like, just remind me about it.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by dpardo, posted 10-12-2004 2:11 PM dpardo has not yet responded

  
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