Does god have free will?

Very interesting thread. I can't believe I completely missed it till now.The pattern I am picking up among fundies is that they want to have both the cake and the pie, even though there's only enough material to make either a cake or a pie.Chuck, are you a skeptic?

But that's just a question designed by you guys to try and entangle God. The fact is that God doesn't order people to kill their family, he has give his words and they shall never pass. A kingdom of everlasting peace.So the above ignores what Phatboy said Lammy boy, God chooses good always, because only one is good - [that being] God. Therefore - he wouldn't order you to do an evil, because of what PB said - he willfully chooses good, and Christ lived peaceably on earth without ordering evil - ever. Boy - stop confusing yourself, *slap, wollop* (I'm trying Dan) Listen, God always has been, therefore - God being good, good has always been.. Lam, I will live my whole life with the choice to murder, but that doesn't mean I'm going to murder and call it good, or order someone to do it. Get back to logic class you lil God-hater. Anyway....all good is from God, he created all things, and the possibilities thereof.It's like species, they won't breed outside but it doesn't mean they can't.

You are missing the damn point. Answer me this question. Is god all good or is the good seperate from god.You said that god chooses good always. This means that he COULD choose evil if he wanted too. If this is the case, then god isn't all good, as GN said before. You are missing the point. In GN's own words, if god ordered him to murder his family, he would have done it because it is good to do so because god ordered him too. I was talking to him in this sense. According to GN, god is always good no matter what. Read the whole freaking thread. Honestly, have you ever taken a logic class? Which is completely off-topic, if you want to take what you've learned from logic into account. Huh?

Yes Lam, I am a skeptic - fascinated by religions, sociology, and ethics. I am also a vegan and an atheist.

Yes - the only thing God cannot do is go against his nature. Ya I know the analogy does not work like that - I was just to illustrate that just because a being cannot do something it does not mean that being does not have free will. God is capable of mental change - he just cannot change it when it is in regards to his nature. Do you seriously think I am a threat to your life? Come on...
Err... and what rights are being taken away? I am taking you seriously. I'm doing my best to understand this issue and the points you bring up, and trying to show you my view.

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If you say there no absolutes, I ask you, are you absolutely sure?

Almost every animal has very limited self awareness - only the chimp seems to have somewhat of a concept of self. I have not heard of this Alex the parrot by I really doubt any animal can think with abstract thoughts and consiously weigh the pros and cons of a situation in order to make an intelligent choice.

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If you say there no absolutes, I ask you, are you absolutely sure?

Almost every animal has very limited self awareness - only the chimp seems to have somewhat of a concept of self. I have not heard of this Alex the parrot by I really doubt any animal can think with abstract thoughts and consiously weigh the pros and cons of a situation in order to make an intelligent choice.

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If you say there no absolutes, I ask you, are you absolutely sure?

Apes can do mental mapping. If you show them a model of a room, and then conceal a model treasure in a model cupboard, they'll go to that cupboard first when allowed to enter the real room.Apes think problems through. Chimpanzees exhibit insight learning, a kind of cognitive modelling:

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The details of the chimps' solutions to Kohler's food-gathering puzzle varied. One chimp tried to shinny up a toppling pole it had poised under the bananas; several succeeded by stacking crates underneath, but were hampered by difficulties in getting their centers of gravity right. Another chimp had good luck moving a crate under the bananas and using a pole to knock them down. The theme common to each of these attempts is that, to all appearances, the chimps were solving the problem by a kind of cognitive trial and error, as if they were experimenting in their minds before manipulating the tools. The pattern of these behaviors--failure, pause, looking at the potential tools, and then the attempt--would seem to involve insight and planning, at least on the first occasion.

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I'm not sure what else to describe this kind of learning as besides "thinking abstract thoughts and consciously wieghing the pros and cons of a situation in order to make an intelligent choice." Obviously, the chimps aren't carrying on the sort of internal monologue that you or I might; but then, they don't have language at all.But they do model things conceptually as a problem-solving tool, much as you or I might do.

I used to have a dog that would push a lawnchair over to the edge of the fence with his nose so that he could use it as a platform to jump over the fence.I've seen a group of pigs work as a group taking turns digging underneath a fense so they could escape from a factory farm.These are examples of human-like behavour from non-humans, and yet we see further examples of intelligence in even the 'lowliest' of the creatures (dung beetles, the bee dance, ants using their antanae to communicate etc) I realize this does not portray self realization, but is that the dividing line? Dogs, pigs, primates, horses, etc have demonstrated that they know who they are and are self aware.

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God is capable of mental change - he just cannot change it when it is in regards to his nature.

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Then god is not all powerfulThis message has been edited by Chuck Diesel, 10-08-2004 05:35 AM

I think it's pretty darn obvious by now.

Lam, may I change the topic title to correct the grammer?

Yes, oh please! It's been bothering me ever since I hit the submit button.

Um, I couldn't help but notice an ENTIRE discussion on GOD without any Scriptural Support for any of it. Odd...you would think if you wanted to know about God you'd read the Bible for yourself, but I know that is just way out of the question.If you read the Old Testament, you will find that God would often punish His chosen people using others, such as Babylon. Now, you ask yourself, is that evil? God uses another nation to destroy and lay waste to His own people. God also wiped out the world with a flood? Is that evil? You need to quit looking at Good or Evil and start looking at Him as a JUDGE! He is the Final Authority, He Judges and He also Executes. Good, Bad or indifferent...He "Chooses" to Punish those that violate His Commandments. He ordered Abraham to offer his son as a sacrifice...Evil? Abraham didn't think so. He fried Sodom & Gommorah for their Sins, Evil? Certainly not...Just God passing Judgement according to His Righteous Holy Standards.The Ten Commandments, if you violate a single one...then your going to Hell. Even if you have only told a single white lie in your life, guess what, your Guilty! God punishing you, good, bad? I'd say He's is JUST. Try reading at least the Old Testament, God is Wrathful and doesn't spare the rod.2 Samuel 6:6-8
"And when they came to Nachon's threshing floor, Uzzah put out his hand to the ark of God and took hold of it, for the oxen stumbled. Then the anger of the LORD was aroused against Uzzah, and God struck him there for his error; and he died there by the ark of God. And David became angry because of the LORD's outbreak against Uzzah..."Uzzah here, put his hand on the Ark of the Covenant because it almost fell from the Cart. He was essentially keeping it from faling...Good initiative huh!? Well, according to Levitical Law...that Ark was supposed to be hand-carried by priests, not placed on a Cart. They violated God's Law. King David of course was upset, He seen Uzzah's good intentions and still couldn't get over God's Swift "Justice."Any Questions?

It is too late now for me to get into a debate. Going to bed soon. What I'm going to say is that I am damn glad we finally have fresh meat!

I am indeed a new baby Christian Still...came onto the Lord just 19 months ago. I have been reading the Bible for answers since. I think finding answers to your questions using the Bible would be a great focus of study for me. Who knows, you might be surprised in what the Bible contains, I know I was.If you have the time for throwing questions my way, I have the dedication in seeking out answers on any subject.Cheers!