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Author
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Topic: The Bible on Sex, Love, and Marriage
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Dan Carroll
Inactive Member
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Message 16 of 302 (149880)
10-14-2004 11:34 AM
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Reply to: Message 15 by MrHambre
10-14-2004 10:58 AM
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I told you, I just think things are moving too fast.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 15 by MrHambre, posted 10-14-2004 10:58 AM | | MrHambre has not replied |
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Mespo
Member (Idle past 2906 days) Posts: 158 From: Mesopotamia, Ohio, USA Joined: 09-19-2002
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Message 17 of 302 (149909)
10-14-2004 12:13 PM
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dpardo writes: Ideally, any good husband is going to listen to counsel from his wife concerning the affairs of the marriage. Especially in areas where the wife's knowledge/ability exceeds the husband's. But, ultimately, if they disagree on the course of action to take, the husband, the bible claims, is to have the final say. Perhaps it is the ideal, dpardo, but I have to go with what works for me, here and now. I see nothing wrong with conceding that my wife may have a better solution to a particular problem than I have. It's not a matter of who wins or who is on top or who is El Supremo. As for what worked for a married couple several thousand years ago, I can only say "how quaint." (:raig
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1365 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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Message 18 of 302 (150014)
10-14-2004 10:03 PM
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Reply to: Message 5 by dpardo
10-13-2004 6:09 PM
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The bible declares that the husband is the person that God has chosen to be the leader. bear in mind the context of this statement. it's a curse, like the curse on man, and curse on the serpent.
quote:
Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire [shall be] to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 5 by dpardo, posted 10-13-2004 6:09 PM | | dpardo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 23 by dpardo, posted 10-15-2004 1:22 PM | | arachnophilia has replied |
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1365 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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Message 19 of 302 (150016)
10-14-2004 10:11 PM
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Reply to: Message 10 by Coragyps
10-13-2004 7:08 PM
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If you read the verses that Arach. supplied above, there's no "think" about it. Women are second-class, both in the OT and to at least one of the guys that wrote under the name of Paul. oh, i was hardly being fair. verses like this suggest equality:
quote:
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
quote:
Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
women, traditionally in the ot times were not second-class per se. they just had separate roles to play. it's not until the time of paul, with the greek infusion that sex (and therefore somehow women) becomes evil. earlier traditions could have been written to be alot more condescending of women. for instance, the eve story. adam gets just as much blame as eve, who gets just as much blame as the serpent, and all three are cursed. compare this to say, pandora's box, a greek myth. there, a woman alone is responsible for bringing evil into the world. those verse i posted were more in spite of paul than the rest of the bible. i don't like paul.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 10 by Coragyps, posted 10-13-2004 7:08 PM | | Coragyps has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 20 by Coragyps, posted 10-14-2004 11:12 PM | | arachnophilia has replied |
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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 756 days) Posts: 5553 From: Snyder, Texas, USA Joined: 11-12-2002
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i don't like paul.
Me neither. Cranky old misygonist!
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1365 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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Message 21 of 302 (150045)
10-15-2004 5:17 AM
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Reply to: Message 20 by Coragyps
10-14-2004 11:12 PM
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Cranky old misygonist! among other things.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 20 by Coragyps, posted 10-14-2004 11:12 PM | | Coragyps has not replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2191 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Message 22 of 302 (150077)
10-15-2004 8:50 AM
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Reply to: Message 5 by dpardo
10-13-2004 6:09 PM
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quote:
The husband and wife, in a marriage, are a team. The team has to have a leader so that they can function effectively together.
Why? There are many equal partnerships in life in which neither partner has the final say all the time, about everything.
quote:
In a football team, for example, there are quarterbacks, runningbacks, and receivers, etc. The quarterback decides what plays are going to be run (based on instruction from the coach), and the team executes that play. The quarterback is not superior to the runningback, receiver or other players but they need to have a system in place in order to function effectively, right?
There are several problems with this analogy. A marriage is between two people, not a whole group. A marriage is a love relationship for life, not a group that comes together to accomplish a task.
quote:
Someone has to be able to decide, ultimately, what course of action the team is going to take.
In a equal partnership, why can't the two people come to mutually-negotiated descisions together? Why won't that work?
quote:
Can the team decide to take two different courses of action and have success?
Why can't two people have success by discussing the various courses of action that may be taken and then come to a mutually agreed-upon descision?
quote:
Ideally, any good husband is going to listen to counsel from his wife concerning the affairs of the marriage. Especially in areas where the wife's knowledge/ability exceeds the husband's. But, ultimately, if they disagree on the course of action to take, the husband, the bible claims, is to have the final say.
But, he doesn't have to listen to her. IT is pretty much optional for him. Ultimately, her opinions do not count. What it seems to boil down to is that the man always can get his way because he can always overrule his wife no matter what, because God says so. All of this, "Yes, we'll listen to what the little woman has to say before I make the descision" crap is just incredibly patronizing. That is not an equal partnership. Nor is it a relationship between adults. That is a parent/child relationship. That is not healthy. This message has been edited by schrafinator, 10-15-2004 07:52 AM
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 5 by dpardo, posted 10-13-2004 6:09 PM | | dpardo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 24 by dpardo, posted 10-15-2004 1:28 PM | | nator has not replied | | | Message 25 by dpardo, posted 10-15-2004 1:39 PM | | nator has replied |
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dpardo
Inactive Member
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Hi Arachnophilia, Actually, I was thinking of Ephesians 5:21-33 when I wrote that:
21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.
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dpardo
Inactive Member
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Message 24 of 302 (150132)
10-15-2004 1:28 PM
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Reply to: Message 22 by nator
10-15-2004 8:50 AM
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Hi Schrafinator, You wrote:
In a equal partnership, why can't the two people come to mutually-negotiated descisions together? Why won't that work? They can and it would work. The ultimate decision falls on the man when they can't come to an agreement.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 22 by nator, posted 10-15-2004 8:50 AM | | nator has not replied |
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dpardo
Inactive Member
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Message 25 of 302 (150137)
10-15-2004 1:39 PM
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Reply to: Message 22 by nator
10-15-2004 8:50 AM
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Schrafinator writes: But, he doesn't have to listen to her. IT is pretty much optional for him. Ultimately, her opinions do not count. What it seems to boil down to is that the man always can get his way because he can always overrule his wife no matter what, because God says so. This would be an abuse of his authority. Obviously, the scenario you described can and does happen. The downside to that, obviously, is that the marriage will suffer. If the husband completely ignores the wife's input, there will be strife and resentment. To the extent that they both fulfill their roles, they will have a rewarding marriage.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 22 by nator, posted 10-15-2004 8:50 AM | | nator has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 29 by nator, posted 10-15-2004 7:02 PM | | dpardo has replied | | | Message 30 by nator, posted 10-15-2004 7:10 PM | | dpardo has replied |
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1365 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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Message 26 of 302 (150177)
10-15-2004 5:43 PM
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Reply to: Message 23 by dpardo
10-15-2004 1:22 PM
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you can ALMOST read a healthy attitude into that verse, which is why i didn't post it the first time around. it's too ambiguous. it says that men should lead, but at the same time be considerate. that's nice and all, but it still promotes male dominance of the family. also, please read it in context of the other paul verses i posted on the page before. paul clearly does not like women.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 23 by dpardo, posted 10-15-2004 1:22 PM | | dpardo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 27 by dpardo, posted 10-15-2004 6:22 PM | | arachnophilia has replied |
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dpardo
Inactive Member
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Hi Arachnophilia, You wrote:
that's nice and all, but it still promotes male dominance of the family. Paul's words promote love and respect. What promotes "male dominance of the family" and all that that implies, is sin.
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1365 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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Message 28 of 302 (150195)
10-15-2004 6:37 PM
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Reply to: Message 27 by dpardo
10-15-2004 6:22 PM
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we reading different books here?
quote:
Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
sounds like male dominance to me. i don't care if he says that men should be good masters of their wives, he still says that men should be masters of their wives.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 27 by dpardo, posted 10-15-2004 6:22 PM | | dpardo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 31 by dpardo, posted 10-15-2004 8:09 PM | | arachnophilia has replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2191 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Message 29 of 302 (150203)
10-15-2004 7:02 PM
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Reply to: Message 25 by dpardo
10-15-2004 1:39 PM
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quote:
If the husband completely ignores the wife's input, there will be strife and resentment.
But if a husband ultimately has the final say, isn't that an awful lot like a parent/child relationship? When the man and wife, who are both mature adults, disagree, why should the man always have the final say, as if he is the parent and she is the child? That a man should want his wife to submit to his dominance in this way is really icky. That a woman should be taught to always submit to another's will to be a good wife is demeaning. An adult relationship is one where neither person can simply overrule the other's will.
quote:
To the extent that they both fulfill their roles, they will have a rewarding marriage.
But see, that's not what the evidence shows. The evidence shows that, by definition, these roles lead to the highest divorce rates among all groups. The lowest divorce rates come from non-believers.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 25 by dpardo, posted 10-15-2004 1:39 PM | | dpardo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 32 by dpardo, posted 10-15-2004 8:14 PM | | nator has not replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2191 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Message 30 of 302 (150204)
10-15-2004 7:10 PM
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Reply to: Message 25 by dpardo
10-15-2004 1:39 PM
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quote:
This would be an abuse of his authority.
The thing is, just having the "authority" at all is a really big problem if you want to have a healthy, adult relationship. Do you have a best friend? Which one of you has the "authority" to make descisions for your relationship if you both disagree about something? Seems silly, and kind of offensive if you imagine yourself as the one having to submit to another's descision in disagreements, doesn't it? My point is, there are many, many outdated practices mentioned in the Bible: how one should keep slaves, sell their daughters, use women, etc. Why are the obviously anachronistic marriage rules followed when all of these other rules are ignored? Women are not chattel anymore. They are even considered to be full human beings. Lately, we've even begun to think of them as just as intelligent and grown up as men. Why force them to be less than fully adult because you pick and choose what you will follow from the Bible? (I think I know why men like this arrangement...)
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 25 by dpardo, posted 10-15-2004 1:39 PM | | dpardo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 33 by dpardo, posted 10-15-2004 8:22 PM | | nator has replied |
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