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Author Topic:   Parables 101
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 16 of 229 (148882)
10-10-2004 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Phat
10-10-2004 10:55 AM


Re: Fair Employer
By making the performers in this scenerio represent specific people or groups, you are making it an allegory.
Jesus was teaching his disciples a specific religious lesson concerning their conversation at that time and place.
By Christian tradition the Jews had not rejected God yet, no Christian church existed yet, and the Gentiles had not jumped on the bandwagon yet.
Parables: simple stories that teach. These stories are not written in stone. They can be changed to suit the audience or situation.
So if you wish to use this parable and make it allegorical to suit a Chrisitan teaching, so be it, but don't attribute the new teaching to Jesus. Understand the parable as Jesus presented it to his disciples in the scenerio given.
IMPO, the "last is first and first is last" portion is from a teaching after the resurrection. The "last" being the Gentiles and the "first" being the Jews. Which shows this has already been adjusted for a new teaching. The addition doesn't really make sense in the parable. A wise owner would have paid the first group first so as not to cause friction with the last group.
Even Jesus taught not to make a show of your generosity.

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Phat, posted 10-10-2004 10:55 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Rrhain, posted 10-11-2004 3:09 AM purpledawn has replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 17 of 229 (148993)
10-11-2004 2:51 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Phat
10-09-2004 7:13 PM


Phatboy responds to me:
quote:
1) Notice that the first men hired may have negotiated a wage. They were looking for pay, and the landowner agreed on a wage.
2) The second group were standing around doing nothing. He offered them a job. No negotiations apart from agreement.(what is right)
That doesn't answer the question. Was the contract for the job or for the effort? Working in the field isn't really something that falls under "piece work."
quote:
Why did the owner want the last to be first? Hmmmmm....If he had paid the first hired first, chances are there would have been no awareness of unfairness and thus no controversy.
So not only is he treating his workers unfairly, he wants them to know that he is.
Sounds like this guy is a jerk. We'll be surprised if he gets anybody to work for him tomorrow.
Perhaps the real lesson we are supposed to be learning is treat your fellow people with respect lest you defeat your own purposes.

Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Phat, posted 10-09-2004 7:13 PM Phat has not replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 18 of 229 (148996)
10-11-2004 3:09 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by purpledawn
10-10-2004 12:20 PM


Re: Fair Employer
purpledawn writes:
quote:
Jesus was teaching his disciples a specific religious lesson concerning their conversation at that time and place.
That assumes that Jesus existed and that the parable offered was really taught by him at that time.
If it really is an allegory, then it is quite problematic for those who find it to be connected to Jesus for it could not have been uttered by him since, as you note, there were no such things as Christians at the time of Jesus.
And, of course, there is the problem that other parts of Matthew have Jesus insisting that you must remain an observant Jew ("I come not to change the law but to fulfill it.") Thus, Jesus' idea of what a "Christian" (which didn't quite exist yet) would be isn't what is currently meant by "Christian." According to Jesus, you must keep kosher.
But then again, Jesus also thought the world was about to end, so he wasn't really thinking about "Christians." He was trying to get as many people into heaven as he could.

Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by purpledawn, posted 10-10-2004 12:20 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by purpledawn, posted 10-11-2004 7:33 AM Rrhain has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 19 of 229 (149080)
10-11-2004 7:33 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Rrhain
10-11-2004 3:09 AM


Re: Fair Employer
Exactly!

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Rrhain, posted 10-11-2004 3:09 AM Rrhain has not replied

  
Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.7


Message 20 of 229 (149087)
10-11-2004 8:30 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
10-09-2004 3:08 AM


I think the parable shows that Jesus was a communist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Phat, posted 10-09-2004 3:08 AM Phat has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 21 of 229 (149125)
10-11-2004 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Phat
10-09-2004 6:17 PM


Re: Next Parable: The Shrewd Manager
IMPO, this parable is poorly constructed.
The point(s) of this parable should be:
1. Whoever can be trusted with very little can also be trusted with much... etc. Luke16:10-12
2. No servant can serve two masters.....Luke 16:13
The story does make a lame attempt at the first point, which given the final comment about the Pharisees,
The Pharisees, who loved money, heard all this and were sneering at Jesus. He said to them, "You are the ones who justify yourselves in the eyes of men, but God knows your hearts. What is highly valued among men is detestable in God's sight. Luke 16:14-15
is probably what the original parable was trying to convey.
The second point doesn't really come through.
The incident that started the string of stories before this parable was the comment by the Pharisees that "This man welcomes sinners and eats with them." This led to the stories of lost and found, but doesn't provide a relevant lead in to this parable.
During the telling of these stories there seems to be a crowd of people. (Luke 14:25) But the opening line of Luke 16 would indicate only his disciples are hearing this particular story.
Jesus told his disciples: Luke 16
So, were the Pharisees eavesdropping?
This next passage alludes to giving away money or possessions, but not necessarily to the needy.
I tell you, use worldly wealth to gain friends for yourselves, so that when it is gone, you will be welcomed into eternal dwellings. Luke 16:9
Why the master praised the manager's shrewdness is problematic even for Bible scholars. There just isn't enough information given to discern the meaning even within its own timeframe.
Personally, this parable reminds me of someone who remembers the punchline of a joke, but doesn't deliver the body of the joke correctly.

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Phat, posted 10-09-2004 6:17 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Phat, posted 10-11-2004 2:25 PM purpledawn has replied
 Message 25 by Rrhain, posted 10-16-2004 6:48 AM purpledawn has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 22 of 229 (149131)
10-11-2004 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by purpledawn
10-11-2004 12:08 PM


Re: Next Parable: The Shrewd Manager
First of all, purpledawn, you or I or anyone else is not lofty or haughty enough to call the Gospels "poorly constructed." Even Shakespeare could'nt get away with that! Examine this parable:
1. What is the situation?
Manager is going to lose his job; he's been squandering the master's wealth.
What does he decide to do?
He decides to set himself up with people who'll do him favors in return later.
How does he evaluate himself?
He accepts the judgment of dishonesty; future is uncertain: he's too weak and too proud. So what does he do? lessens people's debts, tries to get away with it by not cancelling debts, merely decreasing them, making people be in debt to him. (Owe him a favor)
2. How does the master react?
The master praises him. Why? because of his shrewdness!
What would have been the expected reaction?
To condemn his dishonesty, to have been angry at the steward's squandering of the masters money(or time, or talent)metaphorically.
Does the master condone his dishonesty?
No.
What does his shrewdness involve? How is he shrewd?
It may be that he used money to his advantage for the first time-- before he was squandering; shrewdness: trickiness or cleverness, knowing how to deal in the best way with the situations that he had.
3. What does Jesus say about the situation?
sons of this world are more shrewd than sons of light =Who are the sons of this world? worldly people... Typified by? businessmen
Who are the sons of light?
Christians, disciples
4. What is Jesus saying to do?
use worldly wealth to gain friends.
There is a difference between the shrewdness of the children of this age and the children of light. For the dishonest manager, the end was riches: he used his master's money to make friends to make himself rich materially. For the children of light, the end is people: we should use the fleeting riches of this world to bring people into eternal homes. The problem with children of light is often that, knowing that worldly wealth does not last into eternity, we assume it can have no use in eternal things.. What we can learn from the steward is how to be shrewd, how to use the things of this world in eternal tranactions, making their effects last after they are gone.
This message has been edited by Phatboy, 10-11-2004 01:28 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by purpledawn, posted 10-11-2004 12:08 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by purpledawn, posted 10-11-2004 8:45 PM Phat has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 23 of 229 (149153)
10-11-2004 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Phat
10-09-2004 6:17 PM


Any comments?
The moral is clear, to me - stealing a little gets you fired. Stealing a whole lot gets you commended.
I find it particularly apt in the age of Enron and WorldCom. Martha Stewart would be CEO instead of cell block 1 if she'd bilked her shareholders out of millions instead of cutting a 100,000 dollar loss.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Phat, posted 10-09-2004 6:17 PM Phat has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 24 of 229 (149201)
10-11-2004 8:45 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Phat
10-11-2004 2:25 PM


Re: Next Parable: The Shrewd Manager
All you've done is recap the story.
Without turning it into an allegory, what was Jesus trying to teach his disciples on that day?

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Phat, posted 10-11-2004 2:25 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Phat, posted 10-21-2004 8:49 AM purpledawn has replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 25 of 229 (150259)
10-16-2004 6:48 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by purpledawn
10-11-2004 12:08 PM


Re: Next Parable: The Shrewd Manager
purpledawn writes:
quote:
I tell you, use worldly wealth to gain friends for yourselves, so that when it is gone, you will be welcomed into eternal dwellings. Luke 16:9
Why the master praised the manager's shrewdness is problematic even for Bible scholars. There just isn't enough information given to discern the meaning even within its own timeframe.
It makes a bit of sense to me if you are of the opinion that the world is about to end: You can't take it with you, so use it or lose it. Settle your accounts now, even if you don't get everything you're supposed to have for things are about to go boom.
Jesus was a doomsday cult.

Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by purpledawn, posted 10-11-2004 12:08 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by purpledawn, posted 10-16-2004 10:29 AM Rrhain has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 26 of 229 (150270)
10-16-2004 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Rrhain
10-16-2004 6:48 AM


Re: Next Parable: The Shrewd Manager
quote:
It makes a bit of sense to me if you are of the opinion that the world is about to end:
I never looked at it from that point of view. That actually would make more sense than the explanations given in commentaries or bible studies I've attended. Thank you for the insight.
In my NIV Study Bible the explanation of Luke 16:9 is: (italics theirs)
use worldly wealth. God's people should be alert to make use of what God has given them. to gain friends. By helping those in need, who in the future will show their gratitude when they welcome their benefactors into heaven ("eternal dwellings"). In this way worldly wealth may be wisely used to gain eternal benefit.
Unfortunately no matter how the Christians dance around it, Luke 16:9 supports "works" to get to heaven regardless of sincerity or the motivation behind the action.
In a doomsday frame of mind it shouts "Buy your way into heaven before it's too late!"
Which would also support the view given in Luke 18:18 concerning the rich ruler that Jesus told to sell everying and give it to the poor and he would have treasure in heaven.
I love it when the light bulb comes on!

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Rrhain, posted 10-16-2004 6:48 AM Rrhain has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 27 of 229 (151549)
10-21-2004 8:49 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by purpledawn
10-11-2004 8:45 PM


Re: Next Parable: The Shrewd Manager
Concerning the Parable of the Unjust Steward,(Shrewd Manager) I found a site that explains the issues rather well.
http://www.carm.org/parables/parablesteward.htm
What do you think, purpledawn?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by purpledawn, posted 10-11-2004 8:45 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by purpledawn, posted 10-22-2004 1:31 PM Phat has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 28 of 229 (152001)
10-22-2004 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Phat
10-21-2004 8:49 AM


Re: Next Parable: The Shrewd Manager
Nice explanation to teach today's Christian lesson.
Excerpt from The Unjust Steward.
This is significant. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of Wisdom. God can condemn you to eternal damnation. It is wise to seek a way out of that. In fact, the judgment of damnation is so terrible, that praise is offered to the one who, in desperation, seeks a way out of it.
Unfortunately I don't believe the Jews believed in eternal damnation.
To get to this conclusion though, the author adds to the parable to make it work.
The steward was no doubt making extras "under the table," but these amounts were not reflected in the signed bills.
The master was a man of noble character respected in the community who cared enough about his own wealth to fire a wasteful manager, and this is the key to understanding this parable.
We don't know this.
In verse 9 Jesus is not praising the dishonesty, but the ability of the steward to recognize the generosity of his master, see what was coming, and use what he had at the time to obtain something far greater: self preservation.
What generosity? It didn't say the master gave him his job back.
as they rejoice in, what they think is, the generosity of the landowner.
How does this help the steward after he is fired if they think the generosity is from the landowner and not the steward?
What, then, does the parable typify?
1. God (the master) is a God of judgment and mercy.
2. Because of his evil, man (the steward) is caught in the crisis of the coming of the kingdom.
3. Excuses will avail the steward nothing.
4. Man's only option is to entrust everything to the unfailing mercy of his generous master who, he can be confident, will accept to pay the price for man's salvation.
You would need to show me that the Jewish people and/or Pharisees expected the messiah to die for their salvation for me to believe that this is what Jesus was trying to teach at that time.

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Phat, posted 10-21-2004 8:49 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Phat, posted 10-22-2004 4:15 PM purpledawn has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 29 of 229 (152038)
10-22-2004 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by purpledawn
10-22-2004 1:31 PM


Re: Next Parable: The Shrewd Manager
First of all, Jesus is addressing His disciples. These men, although Jewish, are following the man whom they believe to be the Messiah. He has addressed them concerning the last days,(Matthew 24) and they are aware of the meanings behind the parable. As to the reasoning ofthe unjust stewerd, he is maintaining hookups with the clients of his Manager/Landowner so as to perhaps have places to sleep at night? Or perhaps future employment of some sort.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by purpledawn, posted 10-22-2004 1:31 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
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PecosGeorge
Member (Idle past 6873 days)
Posts: 863
From: Texas
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 30 of 229 (152060)
10-22-2004 5:42 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by tsig
10-09-2004 7:31 PM


Re: not about money
This is the correct interpretation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by tsig, posted 10-09-2004 7:31 PM tsig has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by tsig, posted 10-22-2004 6:51 PM PecosGeorge has replied

  
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