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Author Topic:   Who can be saved? A Christian perspective
jar
Member
Posts: 31076
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 151 of 460 (149497)
10-12-2004 6:54 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by Brian
10-12-2004 4:35 PM


Re: Back on Topic
I see what you are getting at, but you cannot just ignore what comes before 19:21 as if it isn’t there.

I don't believe that I do. But I also say that folk shouldn't pull John 3:16 out of the context of what went before it and what comes after. They need to be seen as a unit. IMHO, when you look at the whole passage it, like Matthew 25, is going into a description of how to 'believe in him'.

In addition, John is a book written during the franchise phase of the fledgling Christian Church. It was written in part to promote the seperation between Jews and Christians and to help create an identity for Christians. As such, it is the most exclusionary of all the Gospels.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by Brian, posted 10-12-2004 4:35 PM Brian has not yet responded

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4659
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 152 of 460 (150294)
10-16-2004 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by nator
10-12-2004 11:23 AM


Re: Oxymoron Alert
This is your problem Shraff - you only use the scotsman fallacy when it suits you, but you can't have it both ways - if creationists aren't true scientists, then nazis aren't true christians. And that's using your logic.

You see - a creationist could involve himself in numerous activities - involving the scientific method, likewise - a Christian could involve himself in numerous good works - and if he does 1 bad work - then fair enough, he will have to repent, and continue his walk with God--> Likewise with the creo scientist - he is still a scientist because of his science work. If he had no scientific credentials - then fair enough.

You see - PaulK said it's a joke that I call myself "Christian" yet your side often calls Hitler one. So - when you can play fair - come back and logic-mike will heed you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by nator, posted 10-12-2004 11:23 AM nator has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by nator, posted 10-17-2004 12:15 PM mike the wiz has responded

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4659
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 153 of 460 (150297)
10-16-2004 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by nator
10-09-2004 8:50 AM


Let's assume that this is really happeneing; that God is intervening and we don't know it.
My question to you is this:
What about all the times where God obviously does NOT intervene?

But these times are noted often by none-believers - like you and Crahs mentioning the examples of starving people.

But what about blessings that are un-noticed - or dis-regarded by the unbelieving?

That's a vague promise regarding the afterlife. Why doesn't God reverse their life of hunger and suffering NOW? Why must they live an entire life of hunger and disease when God could fix is instantly?

An "entire life" implies that they survive hunger and disease - and so - it's either not deadly or their lives are considerably shorter than you are touting them as.

And so - if God's ways and thoughts are higher than ours - so is his goodness. He has said that the last here on earth (short period) - shall be first for eternity (long period). Now - What you say concerning starving people - is a fair point, and an understandable one, which I also might wonder about - but then - we are not God - our ways and thoughts are lower.

Which miracles were those? Please be specific; names, dates, etc..

You see - you don't know of any miracles etc..and need me to tell you of them. So it seems that infact I was correct - that you are ignorant of those good things attributable to God's name but would rather concern yourself with possible evils that you might judge bibleGod - a futile endeavour!

That may be true, but it does erase the notion that God cares about human suffering.

Well, let's see now - what is around you as you sit down? What is around me as I sit down? Let us now go and sell everything - and every man and woman likewise - sell everything, and end hunger. Why doesn't this happen? Does it mean we don't care about human suffering? Are we hypocrits to blame God when we also have the power? Yet God favours the poor - and tells us the least shall be the first.

And what about those filled bellies? If God is to blame for the starving - then is he to blame for filling your belly? Does he bless you everyday?

Yet many devote their lives to help the starving etc.. and is God with those people? Did Christ feed the five thousand? - I guess he cared.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by nator, posted 10-09-2004 8:50 AM nator has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by nator, posted 10-17-2004 12:37 PM mike the wiz has responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 367 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 154 of 460 (150494)
10-17-2004 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by mike the wiz
10-16-2004 12:52 PM


Re: Oxymoron Alert
quote:
This is your problem Shraff - you only use the scotsman fallacy when it suits you, but you can't have it both ways - if creationists aren't true scientists, then nazis aren't true christians. And that's using your logic.

You are forgetting that there is no universally agreed upon standard by which one can judge if a person is a "true Christian."

You are using your personal, subjective standard to qualify some and not others, but there are many people who would disagree with you.

Are the Christians (or any people) who disagree with you regarding who are "true Christians" all wrong?

What makes your definition of what a "true Christian" is correct and any different one incorrect?

There is, by contrast, a very clear, universally agreed upon standard by which one can judge if a person is following the tenets of mwethodological naturalism in an investigation of nature.

quote:
You see - a creationist could involve himself in numerous activities - involving the scientific method, likewise - a Christian could involve himself in numerous good works - and if he does 1 bad work - then fair enough, he will have to repent, and continue his walk with God--> Likewise with the creo scientist - he is still a scientist because of his science work. If he had no scientific credentials - then fair enough.

I really don't understand what you are saying here, sorry.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by mike the wiz, posted 10-16-2004 12:52 PM mike the wiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by mike the wiz, posted 10-17-2004 2:11 PM nator has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 31076
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 155 of 460 (150497)
10-17-2004 12:20 PM


Mike & Schraf
You good folk are pulling this way OT. Let's try to stick to the issue of who can be saved.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by nator, posted 10-17-2004 12:38 PM jar has not yet responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 367 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 156 of 460 (150498)
10-17-2004 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by mike the wiz
10-16-2004 1:29 PM


Let's assume that this is really happeneing; that God is intervening and we don't know it.
My question to you is this:
What about all the times where God obviously does NOT intervene?

quote:
But these times are noted often by none-believers - like you and Crahs mentioning the examples of starving people.

But what about blessings that are un-noticed - or dis-regarded by the unbelieving?


Please answer the question, Mike.

Remember, I told you that we could, for the sake of argument, assume that God is really intervening in the lives of people.

So, considering that we assume that He is intervening to save some people, what about all of the times he obviously does not intervene?

That's a vague promise regarding the afterlife. Why doesn't God reverse their life of hunger and suffering NOW? Why must they live an entire life of hunger and disease when God could fix is instantly?

quote:
An "entire life" implies that they survive hunger and disease - and so - it's either not deadly or their lives are considerably shorter than you are touting them as.

No, by "entire life" I meant "as long as a person lives".

This includes the millions of children born into poverty, disease hunger, and war who only know that life of suffering until they die of AIDS or malnutrition before reaching puberty.

There are many babies who die in the womb because their mothers have diseases, or are starving.

quote:
And so - if God's ways and thoughts are higher than ours - so is his goodness. He has said that the last here on earth (short period) - shall be first for eternity (long period). Now - What you say concerning starving people - is a fair point, and an understandable one, which I also might wonder about - but then - we are not God - our ways and thoughts are lower.

But we are told in Genesis that Adam and Eve ate of the Tree of Knowledge so now we know right from wrong.

Isn't it wrong for God to intervene to feed you but not intervene to feed millions of other starving people all over the world?

It screams of injustice and unfairness to me.

Do we know right from wrong now or not, and why isn't God held to at least the same standards as us humans? He is all powerful, after all, right? If he is also all-loving, why would he allow this?

Why would he give the appearance of not caring about the horrible suffering, over millenia, of many millions of people if he could do something about it?

Which miracles were those? Please be specific; names, dates, etc..

quote:
You see - you don't know of any miracles etc..and need me to tell you of them.

Well, sure. You are the one making the claim, aren't you?

quote:
So it seems that infact I was correct - that you are ignorant of those good things attributable to God's name but would rather concern yourself with possible evils that you might judge bibleGod - a futile endeavour!

Indeed, I am ignorant of documented miracles.

Please enlighten me with some verifiable factsinstead of avoiding the issue/lecturing me.

That may be true, but it does erase the notion that God cares about human suffering.

quote:
Well, let's see now - what is around you as you sit down? What is around me as I sit down? Let us now go and sell everything - and every man and woman likewise - sell everything, and end hunger. Why doesn't this happen? Does it mean we don't care about human suffering? Are we hypocrits to blame God when we also have the power?

Who has more power, humans or God?

I thought that God was ALLpowerful?

God could end hunger with a single thought, instantly.

Why doesn't he?

quote:
Yet God favours the poor - and tells us the least shall be the first.

Actually, the writers of the Bible said that, and that kind of thing has been said many times over the centuries to keep poor people from getting pissed off enough to overthrow the rich and powerful.

If you can convince people that it's good and virtuous to be poor, then you have played them, well and proper.

quote:
And what about those filled bellies? If God is to blame for the starving - then is he to blame for filling your belly? Does he bless you everyday?

Why should he be praised for filling your belly but not others'?

Why is he ignoring the other starving millions?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by mike the wiz, posted 10-16-2004 1:29 PM mike the wiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by mike the wiz, posted 10-17-2004 2:04 PM nator has responded

    
nator
Member (Idle past 367 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 157 of 460 (150499)
10-17-2004 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by jar
10-17-2004 12:20 PM


Re: Mike & Schraf
Sorry, jar, mike chased me down in another thread to answer him here.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by jar, posted 10-17-2004 12:20 PM jar has not yet responded

    
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4659
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 158 of 460 (150510)
10-17-2004 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by nator
10-17-2004 12:37 PM


Jar - it was my fault not Shraffs - I told her to answer my posts.

I feel I should atleast return the favour.

So, considering that we assume that He is intervening to save some people, what about all of the times he obviously does not intervene?

How can you know for sure he doesn't?

I did answer your question, - that God is surely with those who go out to end hunger, and give etc.. Have you heard the story of Jesus Christ airlines? That's one example of people being on a wing and a prayer - pardon the pun.

No, by "entire life" I meant "as long as a person lives".
his includes the millions of children born into poverty, disease hunger, and war who only know that life of suffering until they die of AIDS or malnutrition before reaching puberty.
There are many babies who die in the womb because their mothers have diseases, or are starving.

If babies die in the womb - and live forever, how much suffering compared to joy?

Isn't it wrong for God to intervene to feed you but not intervene to feed millions

Lol - you are "implying" again Shraff, it's what you don't say that concerns me you see. Like when you suggest that God is only feeding me (one person) whereas millions are starving. Lol. Obviously - millions are fed.

Why would he give the appearance of not caring about the horrible suffering, over millenia, of many millions of people if he could do something about it?

I trust you have sold your house by now then? To make this accusation? Because I no I haven't - so I won't make the accusation. But nevertheless, he only gives that appearance to unbeliever's mindsets - like you. To me, the scripture makes us sure of God's nature - and he ALWAYS says give to the poor. Wasn't Christ angry at the religious for this very reason? - Devouring widows houses etc..?

Now Christ said love your neighbour - feed him etc..

He also said "you will always have the poor".

Indeed, I am ignorant of documented miracles.

Exactly - you don't search them out, because you have a pre-conceived notion that they don't happen - and you then disregard anything that is told to you because your "freethinkers" have trained you well.

Actually, the writers of the Bible said that, and that kind of thing has been said many times over the centuries to keep poor people from getting pissed off enough to overthrow the rich and powerful.
If you can convince people that it's good and virtuous to be poor, then you have played them, well and proper.

Listen - I don't believe that. Though ofcourse "you have made it into a den of thieves" is what Christ said...So there is truth to your statement. However - Christ wasn't rich and I wouldn't exactly describe myself as rich - and so - this is a bit cynical Shraff - as I DO INDEED believe the poor will be first in the Kingdom of Heaven.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by nator, posted 10-17-2004 12:37 PM nator has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by nator, posted 10-17-2004 3:11 PM mike the wiz has responded

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4659
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 159 of 460 (150512)
10-17-2004 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by nator
10-17-2004 12:15 PM


Re: Oxymoron Alert
You are forgetting that there is no universally agreed upon standard by which one can judge if a person is a "true Christian."

But many agree with me that it's quite simple. Are you saying that you only find logic difficuilt when dealing with the definition of Christian? I doubt that Shraff, but rather - we have a logical progression which is VERY valid.

A. Believes Jesus Christ is the SOn of God
B. Follows the teachings of Christ.

A + B = Christian.

BOTH A + B = Christian.

And so - if you truly believe in Christ, how could you be a nazi muderer without also believing you're going to hell? Because to be a nazi murderer is to not follow Christs peaceful teachings.

Yet I am confident you will keep saying "define, define".

I really don't understand what you are saying here, sorry.

Erm, are you sure about that?

So - how is it a joke for me to be called christian but not Hitler?

Do u really think I am so dumb that I cannot see that it is acceptable for an unbeliever to call Hitler a christian but NOT mike, because of their mindset?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by nator, posted 10-17-2004 12:15 PM nator has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by nator, posted 10-17-2004 3:35 PM mike the wiz has responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 367 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 160 of 460 (150523)
10-17-2004 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by mike the wiz
10-17-2004 2:04 PM


[qs]So, considering that we assume that He is intervening to save some people, what about all of the times he obviously does not intervene?[qs]

quote:
How can you know for sure he doesn't?

Where is the evidence that he does?

You are the one making the claim, mike.

quote:
I did answer your question, - that God is surely with those who go out to end hunger, and give etc.

I'm not talking about the people who give the help to others.

I am talking about the millions of starving people who don't get any help.

Why doesn't God help them directly? Isn't he all-powerful?

No, by "entire life" I meant "as long as a person lives".
this includes the millions of children born into poverty, disease hunger, and war who only know that life of suffering until they die of AIDS or malnutrition before reaching puberty.

There are many babies who die in the womb because their mothers have diseases, or are starving.

quote:
If babies die in the womb - and live forever, how much suffering compared to joy?

What about the others, mike?

What about the orphans with AIDS who die horrible, suffering deaths every single day in Africa?

Why would God even put them here on earth if he is just going to make their few years incredibly miserable? Why not bring them directly to heaven?

[quote]Isn't it wrong for God to intervene to feed you but not intervene to feed millions[quote]

quote:
Lol - you are "implying" again Shraff, it's what you don't say that concerns me you see. Like when you suggest that God is only feeding me (one person) whereas millions are starving. Lol. Obviously - millions are fed.

...and millions are starving.

Why would he give the appearance of not caring about the horrible suffering, over millenia, of many millions of people if he could do something about it?

quote:
I trust you have sold your house by now then? To make this accusation? Because I no I haven't - so I won't make the accusation. But nevertheless, he only gives that appearance to unbeliever's mindsets - like you. To me, the scripture makes us sure of God's nature - and he ALWAYS says give to the poor.

Mike, is God all-powerful or not?

Do humans know the difference between good and evil or not?

Is God subject to the same moral rules as humans or not?

Does God, being all-powerful, have a moral responsibility to use his infinite power to end suffering or not?

Indeed, I am ignorant of documented miracles.

quote:
Exactly - you don't search them out, because you have a pre-conceived notion that they don't happen - and you then disregard anything that is told to you because your "freethinkers" have trained you well.

I can't very well reject something that YOU HAVEN'T TOLD ME ABOUT YET.

So put up or shut up.

You say there are documented miracles that doctors have verified. Who, what, where, when?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by mike the wiz, posted 10-17-2004 2:04 PM mike the wiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by mike the wiz, posted 10-17-2004 3:34 PM nator has responded

    
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4659
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 161 of 460 (150525)
10-17-2004 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by nator
10-17-2004 3:11 PM


Why doesn't God help them directly? Isn't he all-powerful?

1. Priori assumption that he doesn't.
2. You then assume if he doesn't do something in the way you want him to, you then imply he isn't all-powerful.

Infact, it's not his power which is at fault. It is the fact that you (human, lower thoughts and ways) --> Disagree with what you see, plus the assumptions you assume.

It is the things you don't see that bothers me Shraffy.

I have seen many programs with doctors showing authentic miracles - with testimonies of innocent people who have no reason to lie, after previously being unbelievers. Understandably - I have no web source.

What about the orphans with AIDS who die horrible, suffering deaths every single day in Africa?

You are right - this is bad. But if God doesn't act when you want him to - does that mean he doesn't act.

Example - I pray sometimes, and then I get frustrated cos I don't seem to get an answer - and then the answer comes in a day of unexpectation.

Am I silly to automatically assume that God isn't powerful, just cos I don't get my way instantly? Why ofcourse I am.

Nevertheless, Christ has said how he will deal with this world - he is not under Shraff's commands.

Mike, is God all-powerful or not?

Do humans know the difference between good and evil or not?

Is God subject to the same moral rules as humans or not?

1. Yes. 2. Yes. 3. Trick question. God made rules for us - as we are under HIM. PLUS wiz's wager --> Judging God is futile, you cannot punish the MOST High.

Does the shopkeeper make rules for himself saying "do not steal chocolate bars"?

This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 10-17-2004 02:35 PM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by nator, posted 10-17-2004 3:11 PM nator has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by nator, posted 10-17-2004 3:59 PM mike the wiz has responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 367 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 162 of 460 (150526)
10-17-2004 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by mike the wiz
10-17-2004 2:11 PM


Re: Oxymoron Alert
You are forgetting that there is no universally agreed upon standard by which one can judge if a person is a "true Christian."

quote:
But many agree with me that it's quite simple. Are you saying that you only find logic difficuilt when dealing with the definition of Christian? I doubt that Shraff, but rather - we have a logical progression which is VERY valid.

A. Believes Jesus Christ is the SOn of God
B. Follows the teachings of Christ.

A + B = Christian.


Mike, why are there are hundreds and hundreds of different Christian denominations worldwide?

It is precisely my point that very few Christians can agree on what it means to "follow the teachings of Christ".

Some say you should avoid all alcohol, some say booze is fine.

Some say sex is only for procreation and birth control is sinful, others say sex is for pleasure and procreation and that birth control is fine.

Some say that women should be submissive to men and others say that women and men are equal.

Some say that Jesus requires his followers to never kill another person, even in wartime, while others have no strong religious objection with killing in war or the death penalty.

Some say that the Bible is inerrant literal history and science, and others take the bible to be a non-literal allegorical and symbolic guidebook for life.

I have known several Christians who don't consider Catholics to be true Christians, and many more who do not consider Mormons to be true Christians.

So, are you telling me that you are right in who is a "true Chriastian" and all those who disagree with you are wrong?

quote:
And so - if you truly believe in Christ, how could you be a nazi muderer without also believing you're going to hell? Because to be a nazi murderer is to not follow Christs peaceful teachings.

And so - if you truly believe in Christ, how could you be a pro-death penalty muderer without also believing you're going to hell? Because to be a pro-death penalty murderer is to not follow Christs peaceful teachings.

And so - if you truly believe in Christ, how could you be a pro-life muderer of abortion doctors without also believing you're going to hell? Because to be a pro-lifemurderer of abortion doctors is to not follow Christs peaceful teachings.

There are many, many Christians who accept A, but cannot agree on B.

So, my point remains.

There is no objective way to say who is a "true Christian".

I really don't understand what you are saying here, sorry.

quote:
Erm, are you sure about that?

Yep, pretty sure.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by mike the wiz, posted 10-17-2004 2:11 PM mike the wiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by mike the wiz, posted 10-17-2004 3:47 PM nator has responded

    
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4659
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 163 of 460 (150528)
10-17-2004 3:47 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by nator
10-17-2004 3:35 PM


Re: Oxymoron Alert
Mike, why are there are hundreds and hundreds of different Christian denominations worldwide?

Shraffy babe. The difference is in the denominations - not in christian.

Your list of predicates --> Are they against "Christian"?

Some say you should avoid all alcohol, some say booze is fine.

The fruit of the spirit expels alcohol, and fulfills the law. If you are addicted, you can be healed. It's more of a "problem" - but if it leads to inful acts like rape or uncontrolled anger - and you do these sinful things, then you logically become a rapist drunk.

Definitions don't change - people do.

Some say that women should be submissive to men and others say that women and men are equal.

Eeeeerm? Yes - the bible may be unclear - but basically, having a theology that incorporates sin is what goes against christian.

The teachings of Christ - again, are what you don't mention Shraff, if your list makes the dudeguy/ette sin, rather than follow Christ - then obviously they fail the definition of christian.

But;

Some say that the Bible is inerrant literal history and science, and others take the bible to be a non-literal allegorical and symbolic guidebook for life.

And some scotsmen have sugar on their porridge.

You see - this is an attempt to be evasive Shraff - as the teachings of Christ don't say anything about the bible. So these "denominations" of small differences, doesn't trump the main gist of Christ's teachings. Loving God and your neighbour? How do you interpret that as doing murder?

And so - if you truly believe in Christ, how could you be a pro-life muderer of abortion doctors

Are you referring to so called "christians" who kill abortion doctors?

I agree - they cannot truly believe in my view - otherwise they would fear what God would do to them for these henious acts.

Because Christ said to defeat evil with good.

How can they believe Shraff?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by nator, posted 10-17-2004 3:35 PM nator has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by nator, posted 10-17-2004 4:12 PM mike the wiz has responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 367 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 164 of 460 (150530)
10-17-2004 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by mike the wiz
10-17-2004 3:34 PM


quote:
1. Priori assumption that he doesn't.

If God is doing something to end suffering, he is certainly not doing all that is possible for an omnicient, all powerful god.

quote:
2. You then assume if he doesn't do something in the way you want him to, you then imply he isn't all-powerful.

He may be all-powerful, but he cannot be all-powerful AND all-loving if he refuses to do everything in his power (which is infinite, right?) to end needless, horrible suffering.

quote:
Infact, it's not his power which is at fault. It is the fact that you (human, lower thoughts and ways) --> Disagree with what you see, plus the assumptions you assume.

Mike, do humans know the difference between good and evil or not?

Does God know the differencce between good and evil or not?

quote:
It is the things you don't see that bothers me Shraffy.

I have seen many programs with doctors showing authentic miracles - with testimonies of innocent people who have no reason to lie, after previously being unbelievers. Understandably - I have no web source.


Testimonials are not evidence.

You have given me nothing at all that I can personally verify.

A real, verifiable miracle seems like it would be a pretty big deal and would make the papers, at least.

I have just as much evidence for alien abductions as you have just given me for miracles. Doctors, testimonials from converts who have no reason to lie, the works!

Same goes for TV psychics, faith healers, pet psychics, you name it.

I've got a great bridge I can sell you, cheap!

quote:
You are right - this is bad. But if God doesn't act when you want him to - does that mean he doesn't act.

If you were being mugged and beaten, and a dozen big police officers walked by and didn't help you, wouldn't you be kind of confused, angry, and indignant?

And wouldn't you be even more annoyed at the police captain, when you went to complain, who told you that those police officers really WERE helping you, you just couldn't tell how, or pointed to the fact that they helped somebody else just the other day?

Do we know the difference between good and evil or not, Mike?

Is god held to at least the same standards of moral responsibility as we humans are?

quote:
Example - I pray sometimes, and then I get frustrated cos I don't seem to get an answer - and then the answer comes in a day of unexpectation.

Do you make a prediction of what the fulfilled prayer "answer" will be before hand, or do you retrofit the "answer" to the prayer afterwords?

quote:
Am I silly to automatically assume that God isn't powerful, just cos I don't get my way instantly? Why ofcourse I am.

Naw, you are silly for ignoring your own biases.

quote:
Nevertheless, Christ has said how he will deal with this world - he is not under Shraff's commands.

Do we know the difference between good and evil or not?

Is God subject to the same moral responsibility as we are or not?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by mike the wiz, posted 10-17-2004 3:34 PM mike the wiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by mike the wiz, posted 10-17-2004 5:16 PM nator has responded

    
nator
Member (Idle past 367 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 165 of 460 (150531)
10-17-2004 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by mike the wiz
10-17-2004 3:47 PM


Re: Oxymoron Alert
quote:
The fruit of the spirit expels alcohol, and fulfills the law. If you are addicted, you can be healed. It's more of a "problem" - but if it leads to inful acts like rape or uncontrolled anger - and you do these sinful things, then you logically become a rapist drunk.

No, some CHRISTIANS say that it is NOT OK to drink alcohol and other CHRISTIANS say it is fine.

That means that one group of CHRISTIANS thinks the others are NOT TRUE CHRISTIANS.

The DISAGREE on what it means to FOLLOW CHRIST'S TEACHINGS.

quote:
You see - this is an attempt to be evasive Shraff - as the teachings of Christ don't say anything about the bible. So these "denominations" of small differences, doesn't trump the main gist of Christ's teachings. Loving God and your neighbour? How do you interpret that as doing murder?

Mike, are you seriously telling me that the fact that the BIBLE, the FOUNDATIONAL HOLY TEXT OF CHRISTIANITY, and if it is taken as literally true in every word or as allegory, is NOT a hugely major part of what Christians have enormour disagreements about?

Also, I forgot one:

Some believe that toy get into heaven you just need to be saved and believe in Jesus, others believe that you have to do good works to earn a place in heaven.

quote:
Are you referring to so called "christians" who kill abortion doctors?

I agree - they cannot truly believe in my view - otherwise they would fear what God would do to them for these henious acts.

Because Christ said to defeat evil with good.

How can they believe Shraff?


They do believe that they are going to heaven because they are saving innocent babies.

You have decided that they are not Christians, but that is only your rule. They believe otherwise.

quote:
Definitions don't change - people do.

LOL!

Not quite:

"People's definitions change."

This message has been edited by schrafinator, 10-17-2004 03:13 PM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by mike the wiz, posted 10-17-2004 3:47 PM mike the wiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by mike the wiz, posted 10-17-2004 5:07 PM nator has responded

    
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