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Author Topic:   Who can be saved? A Christian perspective
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 101 of 466 (148511)
10-08-2004 6:16 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by crashfrog
10-08-2004 6:10 PM


Fuck if I know. I didn't start this tangent.
Okay - maybe my post was a lil long in my reply to you, still - I dunno what you're getting so stirred up about, you've in times past said that you don't recommend atheism.
Okay, I'll let you win so we can go back to the topic, but I mean - I still say you wanted an argument coming over here. I disagree with your points, but now Jar is calling us back to the topic - fine, you'd want God to convince you and you think he should stop suffering, they're are understandable positions from your worldview - I will shut up like Dan suggested. Also - I wouldn't call you a bad person, or atleast I don't think I did.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by crashfrog, posted 10-08-2004 6:10 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by crashfrog, posted 10-08-2004 6:37 PM mike the wiz has replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 103 of 466 (148521)
10-08-2004 6:50 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by crashfrog
10-08-2004 6:37 PM


I want theists to stop patronizing atheists. Every time I turn around, some theist is patting an atheist on the head and saying "that's nice, kid. Run along and let the adults talk."
I didn't know you felt like that, listen - okay Crash - I'm sorry, let's just forget our exchange as distress amongst hotheads.
Honestly, I have no intentions to patronise anyone. If I have to say sorry any more, my face will be burning all night.
You views are "fair enough" in mike's book, I don't want to attack ur beliefs you see...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by crashfrog, posted 10-08-2004 6:37 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by crashfrog, posted 10-08-2004 6:53 PM mike the wiz has replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 105 of 466 (148533)
10-08-2004 7:13 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by crashfrog
10-08-2004 6:53 PM


Okay then, mike will let you of for now - but then he'll attempt some correct logic on you later on, cos he doesn't know when to quit.
BTW. You can inform us of what you think is more correct and join in, as I for one would like to know what your side thinks - Is the christians view of saved by Christ - repenting etc,,..more accurate to you - or what Jar says concerning Mathew 25. Because this has been a good discussion so far - rather than a debate, I must say.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by crashfrog, posted 10-08-2004 6:53 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 152 of 466 (150294)
10-16-2004 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by nator
10-12-2004 11:23 AM


Re: Oxymoron Alert
This is your problem Shraff - you only use the scotsman fallacy when it suits you, but you can't have it both ways - if creationists aren't true scientists, then nazis aren't true christians. And that's using your logic.
You see - a creationist could involve himself in numerous activities - involving the scientific method, likewise - a Christian could involve himself in numerous good works - and if he does 1 bad work - then fair enough, he will have to repent, and continue his walk with God--> Likewise with the creo scientist - he is still a scientist because of his science work. If he had no scientific credentials - then fair enough.
You see - PaulK said it's a joke that I call myself "Christian" yet your side often calls Hitler one. So - when you can play fair - come back and logic-mike will heed you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by nator, posted 10-12-2004 11:23 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by nator, posted 10-17-2004 12:15 PM mike the wiz has replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 153 of 466 (150297)
10-16-2004 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by nator
10-09-2004 8:50 AM


Let's assume that this is really happeneing; that God is intervening and we don't know it.
My question to you is this:
What about all the times where God obviously does NOT intervene?
But these times are noted often by none-believers - like you and Crahs mentioning the examples of starving people.
But what about blessings that are un-noticed - or dis-regarded by the unbelieving?
That's a vague promise regarding the afterlife. Why doesn't God reverse their life of hunger and suffering NOW? Why must they live an entire life of hunger and disease when God could fix is instantly?
An "entire life" implies that they survive hunger and disease - and so - it's either not deadly or their lives are considerably shorter than you are touting them as.
And so - if God's ways and thoughts are higher than ours - so is his goodness. He has said that the last here on earth (short period) - shall be first for eternity (long period). Now - What you say concerning starving people - is a fair point, and an understandable one, which I also might wonder about - but then - we are not God - our ways and thoughts are lower.
Which miracles were those? Please be specific; names, dates, etc..
You see - you don't know of any miracles etc..and need me to tell you of them. So it seems that infact I was correct - that you are ignorant of those good things attributable to God's name but would rather concern yourself with possible evils that you might judge bibleGod - a futile endeavour!
That may be true, but it does erase the notion that God cares about human suffering.
Well, let's see now - what is around you as you sit down? What is around me as I sit down? Let us now go and sell everything - and every man and woman likewise - sell everything, and end hunger. Why doesn't this happen? Does it mean we don't care about human suffering? Are we hypocrits to blame God when we also have the power? Yet God favours the poor - and tells us the least shall be the first.
And what about those filled bellies? If God is to blame for the starving - then is he to blame for filling your belly? Does he bless you everyday?
Yet many devote their lives to help the starving etc.. and is God with those people? Did Christ feed the five thousand? - I guess he cared.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by nator, posted 10-09-2004 8:50 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by nator, posted 10-17-2004 12:37 PM mike the wiz has replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 158 of 466 (150510)
10-17-2004 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by nator
10-17-2004 12:37 PM


Jar - it was my fault not Shraffs - I told her to answer my posts.
I feel I should atleast return the favour.
So, considering that we assume that He is intervening to save some people, what about all of the times he obviously does not intervene?
How can you know for sure he doesn't?
I did answer your question, - that God is surely with those who go out to end hunger, and give etc.. Have you heard the story of Jesus Christ airlines? That's one example of people being on a wing and a prayer - pardon the pun.
No, by "entire life" I meant "as long as a person lives".
his includes the millions of children born into poverty, disease hunger, and war who only know that life of suffering until they die of AIDS or malnutrition before reaching puberty.
There are many babies who die in the womb because their mothers have diseases, or are starving.
If babies die in the womb - and live forever, how much suffering compared to joy?
Isn't it wrong for God to intervene to feed you but not intervene to feed millions
Lol - you are "implying" again Shraff, it's what you don't say that concerns me you see. Like when you suggest that God is only feeding me (one person) whereas millions are starving. Lol. Obviously - millions are fed.
Why would he give the appearance of not caring about the horrible suffering, over millenia, of many millions of people if he could do something about it?
I trust you have sold your house by now then? To make this accusation? Because I no I haven't - so I won't make the accusation. But nevertheless, he only gives that appearance to unbeliever's mindsets - like you. To me, the scripture makes us sure of God's nature - and he ALWAYS says give to the poor. Wasn't Christ angry at the religious for this very reason? - Devouring widows houses etc..?
Now Christ said love your neighbour - feed him etc..
He also said "you will always have the poor".
Indeed, I am ignorant of documented miracles.
Exactly - you don't search them out, because you have a pre-conceived notion that they don't happen - and you then disregard anything that is told to you because your "freethinkers" have trained you well.
Actually, the writers of the Bible said that, and that kind of thing has been said many times over the centuries to keep poor people from getting pissed off enough to overthrow the rich and powerful.
If you can convince people that it's good and virtuous to be poor, then you have played them, well and proper.
Listen - I don't believe that. Though ofcourse "you have made it into a den of thieves" is what Christ said...So there is truth to your statement. However - Christ wasn't rich and I wouldn't exactly describe myself as rich - and so - this is a bit cynical Shraff - as I DO INDEED believe the poor will be first in the Kingdom of Heaven.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by nator, posted 10-17-2004 12:37 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by nator, posted 10-17-2004 3:11 PM mike the wiz has replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 159 of 466 (150512)
10-17-2004 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by nator
10-17-2004 12:15 PM


Re: Oxymoron Alert
You are forgetting that there is no universally agreed upon standard by which one can judge if a person is a "true Christian."
But many agree with me that it's quite simple. Are you saying that you only find logic difficuilt when dealing with the definition of Christian? I doubt that Shraff, but rather - we have a logical progression which is VERY valid.
A. Believes Jesus Christ is the SOn of God
B. Follows the teachings of Christ.
A + B = Christian.
BOTH A + B = Christian.
And so - if you truly believe in Christ, how could you be a nazi muderer without also believing you're going to hell? Because to be a nazi murderer is to not follow Christs peaceful teachings.
Yet I am confident you will keep saying "define, define".
I really don't understand what you are saying here, sorry.
Erm, are you sure about that?
So - how is it a joke for me to be called christian but not Hitler?
Do u really think I am so dumb that I cannot see that it is acceptable for an unbeliever to call Hitler a christian but NOT mike, because of their mindset?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by nator, posted 10-17-2004 12:15 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by nator, posted 10-17-2004 3:35 PM mike the wiz has replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 161 of 466 (150525)
10-17-2004 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by nator
10-17-2004 3:11 PM


Why doesn't God help them directly? Isn't he all-powerful?
1. Priori assumption that he doesn't.
2. You then assume if he doesn't do something in the way you want him to, you then imply he isn't all-powerful.
Infact, it's not his power which is at fault. It is the fact that you (human, lower thoughts and ways) --> Disagree with what you see, plus the assumptions you assume.
It is the things you don't see that bothers me Shraffy.
I have seen many programs with doctors showing authentic miracles - with testimonies of innocent people who have no reason to lie, after previously being unbelievers. Understandably - I have no web source.
What about the orphans with AIDS who die horrible, suffering deaths every single day in Africa?
You are right - this is bad. But if God doesn't act when you want him to - does that mean he doesn't act.
Example - I pray sometimes, and then I get frustrated cos I don't seem to get an answer - and then the answer comes in a day of unexpectation.
Am I silly to automatically assume that God isn't powerful, just cos I don't get my way instantly? Why ofcourse I am.
Nevertheless, Christ has said how he will deal with this world - he is not under Shraff's commands.
Mike, is God all-powerful or not?
Do humans know the difference between good and evil or not?
Is God subject to the same moral rules as humans or not?
1. Yes. 2. Yes. 3. Trick question. God made rules for us - as we are under HIM. PLUS wiz's wager --> Judging God is futile, you cannot punish the MOST High.
Does the shopkeeper make rules for himself saying "do not steal chocolate bars"?
This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 10-17-2004 02:35 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by nator, posted 10-17-2004 3:11 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by nator, posted 10-17-2004 3:59 PM mike the wiz has replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 163 of 466 (150528)
10-17-2004 3:47 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by nator
10-17-2004 3:35 PM


Re: Oxymoron Alert
Mike, why are there are hundreds and hundreds of different Christian denominations worldwide?
Shraffy babe. The difference is in the denominations - not in christian.
Your list of predicates --> Are they against "Christian"?
Some say you should avoid all alcohol, some say booze is fine.
The fruit of the spirit expels alcohol, and fulfills the law. If you are addicted, you can be healed. It's more of a "problem" - but if it leads to inful acts like rape or uncontrolled anger - and you do these sinful things, then you logically become a rapist drunk.
Definitions don't change - people do.
Some say that women should be submissive to men and others say that women and men are equal.
Eeeeerm? Yes - the bible may be unclear - but basically, having a theology that incorporates sin is what goes against christian.
The teachings of Christ - again, are what you don't mention Shraff, if your list makes the dudeguy/ette sin, rather than follow Christ - then obviously they fail the definition of christian.
But;
Some say that the Bible is inerrant literal history and science, and others take the bible to be a non-literal allegorical and symbolic guidebook for life.
And some scotsmen have sugar on their porridge.
You see - this is an attempt to be evasive Shraff - as the teachings of Christ don't say anything about the bible. So these "denominations" of small differences, doesn't trump the main gist of Christ's teachings. Loving God and your neighbour? How do you interpret that as doing murder?
And so - if you truly believe in Christ, how could you be a pro-life muderer of abortion doctors
Are you referring to so called "christians" who kill abortion doctors?
I agree - they cannot truly believe in my view - otherwise they would fear what God would do to them for these henious acts.
Because Christ said to defeat evil with good.
How can they believe Shraff?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by nator, posted 10-17-2004 3:35 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by nator, posted 10-17-2004 4:12 PM mike the wiz has replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 166 of 466 (150532)
10-17-2004 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by nator
10-17-2004 4:12 PM


Re: Oxymoron Alert
Shraf - be reasonable, you must see that if a footballer who used to plat football - only now plays tennis - then the definition of footballer doesn't become: " person who plays tennis ".
Is it reasonable and logical for me to deduce - that one who intends to murder and then does it - is a murderer or a christian?
Now - I don't judge who is a christian - or who goes to heaven, so please don't strawman my position. Indeed, all I did was offer a definition of what being Christian is - and it's not playing tennis.
Mike, are you seriously telling me that the fact that the BIBLE, the FOUNDATIONAL HOLY TEXT OF CHRISTIANITY, and if it is taken as literally true in every word or as allegory, is NOT a hugely major part of what Christians have enormour disagreements about?
Shraff - All scotsman believe in porridge - but disagree about how tastey it is.
They do believe that they are going to heaven because they are saving innocent babies.
Shraff - I am ignorant of the issue - I'd rather not judge - but all I can suggest is that murder is against what Christ taught - as that is what my position is in this debate with you. And so, Christ said we are in danger of the Commandment "Do no murder" if we even get angry with our brother.
So - If mike has dreams about going to hell - and fears his sins - would mike fear if he had just murdered someone? Oh - I forgot - Hitler is a christian - but not mike, which u still haven't addressed!
This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 10-17-2004 04:21 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by nator, posted 10-17-2004 4:12 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by nator, posted 10-17-2004 6:10 PM mike the wiz has replied
 Message 175 by nator, posted 10-17-2004 6:34 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 167 of 466 (150533)
10-17-2004 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by nator
10-17-2004 3:59 PM


If God is doing something to end suffering, he is certainly not doing all that is possible for an omnicient, all powerful god.
Listen - Christ isn't under the rule of Shraff - and what she says. Shall I say it again? God's ways/thoughts are higher than ours.
He may be all-powerful, but he cannot be all-powerful AND all-loving if he refuses to do everything in his power (which is infinite, right?) to end needless, horrible suffering.
BBBBzzzzt. Wiz's wager - lower thinking - un-omni Shraff makes an attempt to say what God is and judge him add futility.
This above quote is all Shraffy opinion.
Mike, do humans know the difference between good and evil or not?
Does God know the differencce between good and evil or not?
I answered those questions previously. But our knowing good and evill won't give us the right to judge God - because as I previously said - you have no punishment for the most High = BBBzzzt - wiz's wager - after your talk with God, where will you send him?
A real, verifiable miracle seems like it would be a pretty big deal and would make the papers, at least.
They probably do. There are testimonies from doctors etc. --> I seen a man who looked like an elephant from cancer - and now he is healed. But I have no link - I seen it on the God channel on "Sky television" - I don't even know if it's the same where you live - but you MUST have heard of miracles which your bias has ignored.
Why not just admitt that you think God doesn't exist?
Is god held to at least the same standards of moral responsibility as we humans are?
BBBBzzzt, Wiz's wager - you've earned a chat with God - where are u sending him for his Shraffy-perceived wrong doing?
Do you make a prediction of what the fulfilled prayer "answer" will be before hand, or do you retrofit the "answer" to the prayer afterwords?
There can only be one answer to specific requests.
And so - we have the truth.
This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 10-17-2004 04:18 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by nator, posted 10-17-2004 3:59 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by sidelined, posted 10-17-2004 5:47 PM mike the wiz has replied
 Message 171 by Amlodhi, posted 10-17-2004 6:19 PM mike the wiz has replied
 Message 173 by nator, posted 10-17-2004 6:27 PM mike the wiz has replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 169 of 466 (150535)
10-17-2004 6:03 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by sidelined
10-17-2004 5:47 PM


How is it that Schraf cannot say what god is in the latter statement yet in the former you tell her that god's thoughts are higher than ours as though you can?
But I didn't say it;
Isaiah 55; 9: For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so is my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by sidelined, posted 10-17-2004 5:47 PM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by sidelined, posted 10-17-2004 6:28 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 172 of 466 (150538)
10-17-2004 6:25 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by nator
10-17-2004 6:10 PM


Re: Oxymoron Alert
No, the rules of football and tennis are pretty much agreed upon by everybody who plays the games in any professional or serious way.
Can I use that logic aswell please? Can I decide - If I am the one playing?
Each group thinks the others have it wrong about what the "teachings of Jesus" were and how to follow them.
Erm - you haven't actually mentioned a teaching of Jesus though - and I don't see them disagreeing about what Christ taught.
For example - believing the bible - literally or none - isn't a teaching of Christ. The difference IS the denominations. For example - one might think they must attend church and heed creationism - and another might not and heed evolution - but these don't effect Christ's teachings anyway.
Why should I consider you right and all of the others wrong?
Schraff - first show me "another" sects. If their sect incorporates anything against what Christ said - then they've failed the definition I made, - Remember - we are establishing what a christian is - not who is a christian, -- judging particular people.
But nevertheless - me, Buz and Phatboy all agree on the teachings of Christ - despite our diffeerences.
Mike, you have judged that people who murder cannot be true Christians.
No - I haven't. I said that would a murderer be defined better as a murderer, or a christian. The former is logical, therefore - it's like saying " This guy who said he murdered - is a murderer " - is that judging, or simply giving the facts? Remember - this is a hypothetical debate - notice how I avoid the abortion - real life part?
Do Christians disagree over interpreting the Bible literally or as allegory?
Yes or No?
Why? It doesn't matter - Christ didn't teach to either interpret literally or allegorically.
Remember - it's A and B that count!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by nator, posted 10-17-2004 6:10 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by nator, posted 10-17-2004 6:40 PM mike the wiz has not replied
 Message 179 by NosyNed, posted 10-17-2004 7:20 PM mike the wiz has replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 177 of 466 (150546)
10-17-2004 7:08 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by Amlodhi
10-17-2004 6:19 PM


The point is that, statistically, it appears that we live in an indifferent universe.
Statistically - we don't exist, because chance wouldn't allow it.
"Indifferent"? - Says who? - Says you. The universe might be made a certain way - by God.
The apologist's claim is that we can't presume to know how God would do things.
And I'm pretty sure the scientist christian's claim is that it is hard to know how God would do things - I mean, the cross was a bit of a shock to the Jews you know.
And so - scientists and credible rationalist - scientific hypothesis abiding - super evos, add all the impressive mustard you need neutralist objectivites who believe in God - also don't know.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by Amlodhi, posted 10-17-2004 6:19 PM Amlodhi has not replied

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 Message 184 by nator, posted 10-18-2004 9:21 AM mike the wiz has not replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 178 of 466 (150549)
10-17-2004 7:19 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by nator
10-17-2004 6:27 PM


Notice how mike is being attacked. Let's sit back and look at this then; mike and Jar are discussing who will be saved, and now Shraff and co r against the truth of Christ, and are fighting hard with rhetoric tongues and fruitless endeavours against the most High.
You are avoiding the tough questions by falling back on the "mysterious ways" business.
That's insulting to my belief Shraff - as I believe earnestly that Gos is unfathomable - after all - he created the heavens and the earth - and who can locate him?
That is a illogical, weak, unfalsifiable argument. Anytime you don't have an answer to a difficult question, you just throw up your hands and say "we don't understand how God works!"
But don't believe me - believe the book of Job. I am just believing as I previously have.
The Bible says that because Adam and Eve ate of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, we are "as gods", knowing what God knows.
It says we have become as "one of us - to know good and evil". - It doesn't say we suddenly earn the right to judge God. BBBzzzzt wiz's wager.
Is God held to the same moral standards as humans?
I answered this Shraffy baba. I said that the shopkeeper doesn't make rules for himself, because he can't steal his own sweets.
Why don't you find one for me?
Don't you watch 700 club in the USA? They sometimes have a testimony.
So, god is not impossible. God is, however, highly improbable based upon all available evidence.
So basically you've just admitted that on evidence, God is highly improbable to you - despite having preached that science doesn't have a say on God.
I say - that based on evidence - it is an absolute certainty that God exists - and my view is just as scientific, because you preach that science says nothing about God.
Get back to the truth - insolent haughty baba.
If you want to look at us at the same level as God concerning morals - you must also only look at God's example - in the flesh.
This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 10-17-2004 06:21 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by nator, posted 10-17-2004 6:27 PM nator has replied

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 Message 182 by nator, posted 10-18-2004 9:08 AM mike the wiz has not replied

  
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